Dave's Favorite Episodes - E56

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Speaker 1: In this episode we'll be playing Dave's favorite

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episodes Love you to Death and the Motherfuckin' Virgin.

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I'm Dave Jari, I'm Garrett Corder and this is Criminal as

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Fuck.

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What's good?

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Criminals, the boss and all you fuckers out there, and welcome

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to another episode of Criminal AF.

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You know who this is, I'm Dave Jari, and with me, as always, is

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the co-host with the most, garrett Corder.

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How we doing?

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We'll jump right into this episode, but first we want to

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give a shout-out to our newest member of the debauched, gene

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Nelson.

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Thank you so much, gene, for joining our fucked-up family.

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Yesterday we dropped two of Garrett's favorite episodes, and

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today we'll drop two of my favorite Love you to Death, the

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Coerced Suicide of Conrad Roy and the Wild Brain Fucking Case

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of Kevin Davis, the Motherfucking Virgin.

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So sit back, kick your feet up and tell everyone behind you to

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fuck off.

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The highway is officially closed because it's time to fuck

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this episode in the mouth.

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This episode is how should I say?

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Speaker 2: It's infuriating.

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Infuriating.

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It makes you actually want to legit kill somebody, right?

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You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the worst part is you want to kill somebody and,

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on top of that, you just want to reach out to this poor kid,

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right, this poor boy, just somebody.

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He needed one person, one person, one person to know what

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was going on.

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I mean blame the parents, but you know what I mean?

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I, I don't know, it's just this .

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Speaker 1: This story annoys me, yeah so, uh, yeah, you'll know

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what we mean, uh, once we start getting into it.

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Speaker 4: Here's a chapter one this is conrad Henry Roy III

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reporting about social anxiety.

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Social anxiety to me, is the inability to function properly

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in a manner that you want to in social situations, and one of

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the things that I've realized is not all eyes are on you at all

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times.

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It's not all eyes are on you at all times.

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People don't necessarily judge you, particularly in a situation

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where you're not feeling very good about yourself.

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You're making mistakes.

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Like people understand that you come across as awkward.

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They're not going to judge you and make fun of you.

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Like that's just who you are as an individual and the quicker

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you are to realize who you are, the better.

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Like you don't have to be this amazing, like thought-out,

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drawn-out.

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Like thought out, drawn out.

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Like superhero, like Conradable Hulk, superman.

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I don't know the people that are portrayed in the media.

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It's like perfect, but they're not perfect.

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I mean, if you take drugs, serious cocaine, like oh my God,

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he's not perfect, nobody's perfect.

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You just have to accept yourself as an individual.

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Oh my God, he's not perfect, nobody's perfect.

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You just have to accept yourself as an individual.

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Speaker 1: Mental health is a subject that carries a stigma,

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and it shouldn't.

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There isn't a person in the world that hasn't experienced

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some period in their life where they felt a little less than

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themselves.

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I'm not ashamed to admit that I have had periods of struggling

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with my mental health.

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Most often, you will never know if someone is struggling.

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People who have dealt with these issues throughout their

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life have become very keen on how to disguise it.

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Being told to toughen up, it'll pass.

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You're overreacting only hardens your shell and makes it

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harder for you to let people in to know what truly is going on

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through your mind, and, in turn, make you feel more and more

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alone.

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If there is one message I can get across when talking about

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mental health, is it that people need to be more compassionate.

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In today's world of online trolls, neighbors growing more

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distant, jobs focusing more on the bottom line and schools

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focusing more on reaching state test scores than reaching the

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hearts and minds of children, people have grown to be

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desensitized to the basic needs of a person, and that has to be

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loved and accepted.

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We need more compassion for each other, especially towards

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those who you know are struggling but are too proud or

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too ashamed to accept it, assure them.

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You are there if they need you.

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Reassure them through words and actions.

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Some people's shells are thicker than others, so it may

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take time to break through, but don't give up on them.

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They have been shunned many times before.

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Don't add yourself to the list of people who have given up on

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them.

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So be compassionate.

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It doesn't cost a thing and doesn't take more than a moment

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of your day.

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As we will learn in this episode's story, there wasn't

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much compassion given to the one who needed it the most.

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In fact, they were encouraged to end their own life, even

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though, deep down inside, they were reluctant to take it.

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The story of Conrad Roy and Michelle Carter struck many

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throughout New England.

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Conrad and Michelle both had their time dealing with mental

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health issues, and what seemed to be a good pairing, because

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they both understood each other, turned into something else.

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We have to ask ourselves can one person be held responsible

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for another person taking their own life?

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The answer, according to the state of Massachusetts, is yes.

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In the unprecedented case against Michelle Carter

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beginning in June of 2017, the state of Massachusetts argued

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that Michelle failed to intercede in the suicide of

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Conrad Roy, who passed away on July 13, 2014, at the age of 18

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from carbon monoxide poisoning.

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In fact, prosecutors accused Michelle of coercing Conrad into

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doing the act.

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The proof, they say, was in a series of text messages and

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phone calls between Conrad and Michelle dating as far back as

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2012.

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At first, michelle Carter would attempt to persuade Conrad into

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seeking help for his depression , but all of this changed when

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Michelle began to think it would be beneficial for her if Conrad

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did kill himself.

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Why this change of heart Soon?

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We will discuss how Michelle used Conrad's depression and

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eventual suicide for her own personal gain and how, even

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after his death, she kept the charade going for months in a

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vain attempt to seek sympathy and acceptance from people who

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she considered friends.

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While we cannot tell Conrad Roy's story without including

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the role Michelle Carter played in his life and death, I will

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attempt to tell this story from the perspective of Conrad Roy.

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I will also include excerpts of the text messages shared

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between the two, with Kelly Corder and myself playing the

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roles of Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy.

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I will say this again If you or someone you love is struggling

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with mental health issues, please seek help through a

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licensed professional therapist.

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If you are having thoughts of harming yourself, call your

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region's emergency service number immediately.

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Your life matters.

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Conrad Roy and Michelle Carter met in Naples, florida, in

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February of 2012.

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Michelle was visiting her grandparents while Conrad was

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visiting his great-aunt.

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They soon discovered that they were both from Massachusetts,

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less than 40 miles apart, with Conrad living part-time in his

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mother's home in Fairhaven and his father's home in

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Mattapoisett, while Michelle lived in Plainville.

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They spent the rest of their time together in Florida, riding

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bikes and walking, and by the end of the trip both had agreed

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to keep in touch.

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Over the next two years, the two would see each other in

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person less than five times, but they would communicate numerous

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times a day via text, phone call and email.

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While it's been stated that Conrad never officially called

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Michelle his girlfriend to his family or friends, toward the

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end of Conrad's life, michelle asked if she would be able to

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call herself his girlfriend after he passed, to which he

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agreed.

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Conrad and Michelle's relationship was unorthodox to

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begin with, but through their communications they appeared to

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be in love with each other or what two teenagers who have

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never been in love think being in love is.

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At first, conrad and Michelle were very open and supportive of

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each other and of their respective mental health

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challenges, and would help steer the other from making drastic

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decisions that could have a harmful or permanent effect on

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their life.

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In 2014, however, michelle's role in their relationship

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changed.

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Rather than trying to dissuade Conrad from taking his life, she

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began encouraging him.

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So, as we mentioned in the story that Conrad and Michelle,

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they met each other down by chance down in Naples, florida

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Another Florida story Another Florida story Another Florida

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story In February of 2012.

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Now, you know, they only lived 40 miles apart, but yet they saw

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each other less than a handful of times over the two years that

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they were quote unquote in the relationship.

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Now, conrad, you know he never went around telling anybody that

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because Michelle was his girlfriend yeah you know, but

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Michelle kind of like, I guess she kind of saw it a little bit

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more than he did, or vice versa, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: But um, I feel like he had to have thought there was

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more there.

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No, yeah, he did.

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Yeah to confide in her right.

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You know what I mean.

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Well, as much as he did.

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Speaker 1: There was a little bit in the, in the in the couple

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years where, uh, you know, he kind of like started backing off

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a little bit but then got you know what.

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I mean it's kind of up and down kind of relationship.

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You know so.

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But you gotta think you talk to this person pretty much every

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day email, phone call, whatever.

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If you see them less than five times in two years, like what

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else is going on in your life?

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Speaker 2: God wait, you don't remember, though, back when you

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were in eighth, seventh, eighth grade before you, like when you

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had your first girlfriend.

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Speaker 5: But it wasn't your first love, first love you know

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what I mean.

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Speaker 2: But you would.

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You would steal a house phone to talk to them.

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You know what I mean.

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You would that they were all that mattered.

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At that point you had to make sure you were home at seven to

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call your girlfriend.

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Quote on you.

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You hung out with, you might have went to the movies twice in

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the entire time that you were together.

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You held hands and you thought it was cool, you.

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But that's at that point that's your whole world, right?

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You know what I mean.

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So I I don't think they were at the point where they could be

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dating every day and seeing each other.

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Speaker 1: It was more like no, I mean, I, I understand that,

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but I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm looking at the end

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result of the story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah yeah, it's like during this

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two-year period.

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Speaker 1: What was he lacking in his personal life, where he,

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like you know, michelle, basically what word am I looking

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for?

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Took over, dictated, yeah, everything you know, everything

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you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing you don't know.

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Like if you could have just met him and saw the personality

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traits, right, how, how he acted in school, you know what I mean

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.

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Like you don't see those things , you're just hearing and you're

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like, yeah, I kind of get the vibe.

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He wasn't the most popular kid, wasn't the most.

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You know what I mean.

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He had some, definitely had some self-esteem issues.

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Speaker 1: Right, he had self-esteem issues but he

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actually uh, some of the videos that he posted of himself.

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He uh, he actually said that he would learn pop culture,

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because that's what things people were talking about.

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You know what I mean?

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Like he didn't know how to communicate with people, so he

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would learn all the current events and pop culture and like

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justin bieber and like all this other kind of stuff.

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Yeah, just so he would have something to talk about with, to

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converse right with with people .

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His age, like he he didn't really feel like, uh, he fit.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean, which probably added to his

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depression and anxiety right yeah, and it's just like there

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was nobody.

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Speaker 1: You know there's nobody else.

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I don't.

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Maybe I'm getting too far ahead in the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll save it for the next chapter.

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Speaker 1: That's alcohol talking.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, but we'll go ahead and jump into chapter two

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the hardest thing for me is to be comfortable in my own skin.

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Now I know, I know, I know, I know, I know a of people tell me

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, a lot of people tell me, that I have a lot going for me.

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I have to be happy.

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I have to be happy.

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Well, no, you don't have to be happy.

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Your happiness comes from what your conscious thoughts and

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well-being you create your own happiness.

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Your conscious thoughts and well-being.

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You create your own happiness.

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And by you creating your own happiness, in a sense, you're in

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a society where you look at someone better off than you,

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happier, you want to be jealous and envious of them.

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For no, it's just subconscious.

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You just go.

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When you're depressed, you just go the place, the place.

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Oh yeah, this guy's happy, this guy's.

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You just point out, wait the obvious, but it's not real

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obvious, but it's not real.

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Speaker 1: Michelle Carter was born August 11th 1996 in

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Plainville, massachusetts, to Dale and Gail Carter.

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She didn't have many friends and she awkwardly tried to

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include herself in other girls' lives, unsuccessfully To the

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adult she interacted with.

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Michelle appeared to be a normal teen girl.

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She played softball and was voted most likely to brighten

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your day by her high school classmates.

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She would be in pictures smiling alongside other girls.

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She was a good student.

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She was said to be polite and she seemed outgoing Almost too

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much polite.

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And she seemed outgoing Almost too much.

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In reality, her inner thoughts did not match this

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picture-perfect outward persona.

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She may have seemed like she had a lot of friends, but none

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of her relationships were deep or meaningful.

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She was at best an acquaintance to the ones she considered

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friends.

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Dr Peter Bregan, a psychiatrist who testified in Carter's trial

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for the defense, even called her desperate.

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She would incessantly text the friends she did have, making her

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appear needy, and it pushed girls away.

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Michelle had this unhealthy obsession with glee in other

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teen movies and TV shows.

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She would quote parts of the show to Conrad about how she

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loved him.

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Michelle had this unhealthy obsession with Glee in other

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teen movies and TV shows.

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She would quote parts of the show to Conrad about how she

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loved him.

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In the show Glee, if you're not familiar, the two main actors

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were dating on and off screen.

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The boyfriend died from an overdose in a hotel room.

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Michelle would quote not only lines from the show but real

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things that the actress had said in interviews about the death

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of her boyfriend.

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Many would say Michelle didn't really know who she was and

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would place herself in the heads of these fictitious characters

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from these shows and movies.

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She had no real friends, but these characters did and she

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wanted to be just like them.

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When Conrad and Michelle's relationship started, she would

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try to stop Conrad from trying to commit suicide.

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She would tell him that she loved him and had told him not

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to go through with it.

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Over time something changed.

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Some say it was a change in her psychological medication.

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She had been on Prozac for years before switching to

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another antidepressant, celexa, in April of 2014, three months

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before Conrad's death.

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These types of drugs can impair judgment, wisdom, understanding

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, love and empathy, especially in an adolescent brain.

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Her defense team said that Michelle was involuntarily

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intoxicated.

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They believed that Michelle began to think that she could

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help Conrad get what he wanted to die painlessly and get to

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heaven and then help his family grieve less by understanding

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them.

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This neediness and desperation is what many suspect as a motive

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for pushing Conrad to commit suicide.

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She knew she would have attention if her boyfriend died.

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This theory is, in a way, tested.

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When Michelle herself told people that her boyfriend had

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gone missing days before he actually died, she started to

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get some of the attention that she was craving.

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So she gets a taste of this attention and it pushes her even

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more to make Conrad go through with his suicidal plans.

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She didn't want to appear to be a liar after after all, and all

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of that attention felt way too good to let go of.

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Conrad was born September 12, 1995, to Conrad Roy Jr and Lynn

00:18:24
Roy.

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He has two younger sisters, morgan and Camden.

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His parents separated when he was 16 and it affected him

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mentally.

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He tried to please everyone and he went out of his way to

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appease both his mother and his father and set high expectations

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for himself.

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He worked with his father, grandfather and uncle in the

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family's marine salvage business , tucker Roy Machine Towing and

00:18:51
Salvage.

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In the spring of 2014, he earned his captain's license

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from the Northeast Maritime Institute.

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In the same year he graduated on the honor roll from Old

00:19:03
Rochester Regional High School in Mattapoisett, he was accepted

00:19:07
to Fitchburg State University to study business, which he

00:19:11
never got to attend.

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Conrad was a hardworking, intelligent young man, but he

00:19:20
was also very sad and depressed.

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He had attempted suicide multiple times before he tried

00:19:28
in 2012, right after his parents divorced.

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His father was physically abusive at times and his

00:19:35
grandfather verbally abused him.

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He struggled with social anxiety and depression and had

00:19:40
seen several therapists and counselors.

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At the age of 17, he was hospitalized for acetaminophen

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overdose.

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In interviews with his family, you could tell that he was truly

00:19:52
loved and that they miss him terribly.

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Despite their issues and fighting, they would do anything

00:19:58
to have him back.

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They were so proud of him and of his grades and of his

00:20:03
becoming a captain so young.

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His grandfather was bursting with pride and holding back

00:20:13
tears, telling the story about how Conrad walked in with his

00:20:16
captain's license.

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If only he knew how much they truly did love him.

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Conrad tried to get help.

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He was on the antidepressant citalopram, but there were

00:20:30
warnings in the box that it may increase suicidal thoughts in

00:20:32
people under 24.

00:20:32
This, paired with the text he got from his girlfriend someone

00:20:38
who he loved and thought loved him pushed him to complete the

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suicide attempt.

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So now that we get a better picture of who Michelle was, she

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was somebody who herself didn't quite fit in and she tried

00:20:54
really hard to fit in.

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You know what I mean?

00:20:56
Like she tried to create stories about her life that you

00:21:01
know would seem interesting to other people.

00:21:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, compulsive liar , Compulsive liar yeah, Lying to

00:21:06
start conversations.

00:21:07
I've seen it many times.

00:21:08
Speaker 1: Right and but that never really goes very far,

00:21:13
because people around you can see right through it.

00:21:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I ?

00:21:16
Speaker 1: mean, yeah, like you know, you have that kid in high

00:21:19
school.

00:21:19
You're like, oh, yeah, I got a girlfriend.

00:21:21
She goes to East whatever high school, East Bay High, yeah,

00:21:31
east Bay High.

00:21:31
What are the names of East Bay High?

00:21:32
What are their names?

00:21:33
Her name is Kelly Kowalski Kowalski Whatever her name is.

00:21:40
But, yeah, you know, it's like, yeah, okay, alright, yeah, you

00:21:43
got a girlfriend.

00:21:44
Alright, buddy, yeah, you got pictures of her.

00:21:45
Oh, no, you don't.

00:21:46
Okay, all right.

00:21:46
Speaker 2: You know what I do?

00:21:47
There's stock Google images.

00:21:48
Yeah, You're like what You're dating a supermodel.

00:21:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:59
Adults, you know adults.

00:22:01
You know she's like well, she's very normal, she's very

00:22:03
pleasant, she's very nice.

00:22:05
You know and everything you know.

00:22:07
She played softball, she played sports.

00:22:09
You know she was a good student , she was polite, she was

00:22:12
outgoing, all that kind of stuff you know.

00:22:14
But you can start to see where, you know, her perception of of

00:22:20
of how life should be is skewed.

00:22:22
You know she had like an eating eating disorder, so she was

00:22:25
basically perceived herself as something worse than what she

00:22:29
actually was.

00:22:29
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:30
I feel like, though, all of this is just normal teenager girl

00:22:33
stuff too, though Like no, she actually like starts getting

00:22:38
lost in like a fantasy world.

00:22:39
Yeah, she starts watching TV shows, you know, movies and

00:22:42
everything like that, and she gets caught up in the whole

00:22:46
romance of it and the fantasy of it.

00:22:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely almost seems like this becomes

00:22:53
almost fetishized by her.

00:22:55
That's like the feeling that I get from it, right?

00:22:59
Speaker 1: And she sees like her favorite show was Glee.

00:23:02
Have you ever watched Glee?

00:23:04
A long time ago, a long time ago, a long time ago.

00:23:07
So I used to have to watch it because my stepdodgers were like

00:23:10
obsessed with it.

00:23:10
So we'd all sit down and, you know, try to do like the family

00:23:15
thing.

00:23:15
You know we'll sit down and watch Glee.

00:23:16
It wasn't a bad show.

00:23:19
I actually kind of liked it.

00:23:20
I'm not going to lie, gay.

00:23:21
I'm not gonna lie.

00:23:22
Speaker 2: Gay, I'm not gonna lie the next thing you're gonna

00:23:25
tell me is that you used to watch High School Musical.

00:23:27
Huh bro we're all in this together bro, don't knock it oh,

00:23:34
I had the biggest crush on Vanessa Hudgens, but you know

00:23:37
what, so you know do you?

00:23:38
Remember when her nudes leaked?

00:23:39
Oh my god, oh my god, my mind was blown.

00:23:44
How old was she then?

00:23:45
Speaker 3: She was over 18.

00:23:46
Speaker 2: I was like 19 when that came out.

00:23:48
Speaker 1: I was young.

00:23:49
All right, relax.

00:23:50
All right, you know.

00:23:51
Other movie was Pitch Perfect.

00:23:54
Speaker 2: Pitch Perfect was good though.

00:23:55
Yeah, it was good, it was good.

00:23:56
Speaker 1: I liked that one.

00:23:56
I had to sit down and watch that too.

00:23:59
Speaker 2: Amazing that a musical show led to basically

00:24:04
convincing someone to kill themselves.

00:24:05
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:24:06
So anyways, back to the story.

00:24:10
So she became obsessed with Glee and if you're not familiar

00:24:13
with Glee, it basically has two main characters.

00:24:16
One was like a jock, the other one was like a nerdy music band,

00:24:21
geek or whatever music band, geek or whatever, and they ended

00:24:24
up coming together and forming this whole like acapella, you

00:24:29
know whatever band or group.

00:24:32
Now he died in real life, yeah, so I remember that.

00:24:37
Yeah, he died of a drug overdose, so on the show they

00:24:42
made it out to be this like huge , you know, spectacle or

00:24:44
whatever.

00:24:44
Speaker 2: And nothing like profiting like huge you know

00:24:45
spectacle or whatever, and nothing like profiting off of

00:24:47
you know somebody's death somebody's death, but yeah.

00:24:50
Speaker 1: So they basically focused in on the character of

00:24:54
Rachel, who was the boy, who was the girlfriend of Finn, who

00:24:57
died, and I mean this went on for an entire.

00:24:59
This was like a whole special, you know.

00:25:00
I mean this went on for an entire.

00:25:02
This was like a whole special, you know.

00:25:04
So Michelle Carter is seeing this like, oh well, I have a

00:25:10
boyfriend who is struggling.

00:25:12
Yeah, Now I see all the attention that Rachel is getting

00:25:20
.

00:25:20
Yeah, how can you?

00:25:27
Speaker 2: know I can.

00:25:27
I can get that attention too, so to speak.

00:25:28
You know what I mean.

00:25:29
It's almost like munchausen syndrome.

00:25:30
Speaker 1: But without what?

00:25:31
Speaker 2: with your boyfriend over you know what I mean your

00:25:32
kids exactly.

00:25:33
Speaker 1: You know so.

00:25:33
So around uh, late 2013, 2014, she starts changing because at

00:25:41
the time she was very helpful to Conrad.

00:25:44
You know Conrad, you know he struggled with his you know

00:25:47
depression and everything like that and she was very supportive

00:25:49
.

00:25:49
She's like you know, get help.

00:25:50
You know you need to go to your doctor's appointment, you need

00:25:53
to take your medicine, blah, blah, blah, so that kind of

00:25:54
stuff.

00:25:55
Now, now, with Conrad, his parents split up in 2012 right

00:26:00
around the time that he met Michelle, so he was splitting

00:26:03
time between both.

00:26:04
Now his father allegedly was very physical with Conrad and

00:26:13
his grandfather was allegedly also very verbally abusive, and

00:26:19
now Conrad's been Definitely weren't the feelings kind of

00:26:22
family, right, and that's what he needed.

00:26:25
Well, yeah, because when you look at the family and what they

00:26:27
did for a profession they were basically, you know, they worked

00:26:31
out of the boatyard and they were not scavengers but refuse.

00:26:36
You know they dealt with basically the underbelly stuff

00:26:41
of the shipyard Cutting copper, right, cutting copper type of

00:26:44
people, right, cutting copper type of people, right.

00:26:45
So, yeah, so Conrad didn't really get much from his father

00:26:49
and his grandmother.

00:26:50
They loved him, you know, but they're more of like the 70s,

00:26:55
80s kind of love.

00:26:57
Yeah, I love you.

00:26:58
Wow.

00:26:58
Yeah, don't fuck up, you know what I mean, stop crying up.

00:27:01
You know, stop crying.

00:27:02
So connor, he couldn't really lean towards that side of family

00:27:06
to help him, like kind of like, find his way.

00:27:08
And but I think that's it's kind of common for pretty much a

00:27:15
lot of people going through like high school like that

00:27:19
you're trying to figure out who you are, what you, you where do

00:27:24
you fit in society.

00:27:25
You know, I think it's kind of common, regardless of what, yeah

00:27:29
.

00:27:29
Where you see yours, where your status is in high school.

00:27:33
Speaker 2: You know hierarchy of being a shitty teenager, yeah,

00:27:37
yeah.

00:27:37
Speaker 1: So but I'm sure that at some point during those,

00:27:40
during those four years, whether it's sooner or later, at some

00:27:43
point you ask yourself where do I fit in?

00:27:46
Am I going to be good enough?

00:27:48
You know, like you kind of question?

00:27:51
Yeah, you know what I mean.

00:27:53
Speaker 2: No, yeah, for sure, I agree.

00:27:55
I think it doesn't matter what group you're in, what status

00:27:59
you're in, where you're sitting at lunch, all that stuff doesn't

00:28:05
matter, because you're, I think , everybody in when you're

00:28:06
junior year or high school I wouldn't even say senior,

00:28:07
because by senior you just kind of start building that plan to

00:28:08
know what you're gonna do.

00:28:09
But like sophomore, junior year , high school, you're definitely

00:28:12
.

00:28:12
Am I gonna, even, am I gonna make it?

00:28:15
Am I, what am I gonna do?

00:28:16
Right, especially if you were a mess up like me who were

00:28:19
teachers told where it's gonna amount to nothing in life, you

00:28:21
know what I Dude, I stayed back my senior year in high school.

00:28:25
I had to do summer school a couple times.

00:28:26
I definitely had to do summer school.

00:28:29
I was in trouble a lot and a lot of teachers didn't like me,

00:28:34
not like mean trouble.

00:28:35
I just was conniving.

00:28:36
So you know that definitely creeped in my mind Like what am

00:28:41
I going to just end up?

00:28:42
Speaker 1: But I Basically what I'm saying is that I can see how

00:28:45
somebody, during those years where it could go, they can kind

00:28:52
of get stuck in that mind frame .

00:28:54
Yeah.

00:28:55
Speaker 2: Especially if you're eating lunch alone.

00:28:57
You know what I mean.

00:28:58
You have nobody close besides this girl who's texting you

00:29:01
every now and then.

00:29:02
Speaker 1: Right, so, yeah, he struggled throughout high school

00:29:04
and he was diagnosed with social anxiety and depression.

00:29:18
Speaker 2: And you know he went through numerous therapists and

00:29:20
counselors and whatnot.

00:29:21
Speaker 1: And suicide, multiple suicide attempts too, yeah.

00:29:22
Now the thing that stood out to me and we kind of talked about

00:29:36
this earlier was he let out a huge cry for help when he quote

00:29:38
unquote tried to overdose on basically aspirin, tylenol, and

00:29:39
this was a year prior to him actually going through with it.

00:29:41
Speaker 2: You know, it's crazy too, as I think a lot of people

00:29:44
even like the listeners at home, because I know I know at least

00:29:47
two people that I went to high school with tried to OD on

00:29:49
Tylenol.

00:29:50
You know what I mean.

00:29:51
It's it's a very common, it's a it's a very common cry for help

00:29:54
.

00:29:54
It's not the way like whenever you heard some people commit

00:29:58
suicide.

00:30:15
Speaker 1: You know what I mean so now michelle sees that

00:30:18
because this was, you know, this is like halfway through their

00:30:21
relationship.

00:30:21
So this was, uh, the attempted suicide was on 2013.

00:30:25
So now I think, after this, michelle starts to see, oh, he

00:30:31
kind of like, really, he could do this, he could do this, yeah,

00:30:36
and coincide with her, her, whatever this fantasy that she

00:30:41
has in her head that you know she's going to be whisked away

00:30:46
with with all these friends and everything If her boyfriend

00:30:49
passes away.

00:30:50
I think this is like around a time where she tries to kind of,

00:30:53
where she kind of transitions from being like the supportive

00:30:56
quote unquote girlfriend to let's see how I can play this in

00:31:01
my favor, kind of thing.

00:31:01
You know what I mean.

00:31:03
So next thing we're going to take a look at is a intimate

00:31:06
look into the relationship between Conrad and Michelle

00:31:11
through a series of text messages and how you can see how

00:31:16
Michelle is now trying to persuade Conrad into ending his

00:31:20
life rather than trying to help him here in chapter three.

00:31:25
Speaker 4: I am who I am.

00:31:26
Yes, I can develop as a person, be more fluent, articulate,

00:31:34
passionate about who I am.

00:31:36
Or I can just go home, sit in my basement and just do nothing

00:31:43
about it.

00:31:43
Basement and just do nothing about it, Just sit in my sorrows

00:31:51
, weep and cry over something that is in the past.

00:31:52
Or I can just take it one by one, day by day, step by step.

00:31:59
I mean it's going to be difficult to accomplish, but I

00:32:07
need to for personal growth, accomplish this sense of

00:32:13
self-pride in myself.

00:32:24
Speaker 1: There are thousands of text messages between

00:32:25
Michelle and Conrad leading up to Conrad's death.

00:32:28
I will provide some of these text messages so you can

00:32:32
understand the relationship between these two young people

00:32:36
Once again.

00:32:36
Kelly Corder and myself are playing the roles of Michelle

00:32:39
Carter and Conrad Roy.

00:32:40
Before we continue, if you or someone you love is listening to

00:32:46
this episode and have or currently are struggling with

00:32:49
your mental health, I advise you to please skip through these

00:32:52
text messages.

00:32:52
These texts begin on July 5th, eight days before Conrad took

00:32:58
his life, Hi.

00:33:04
Hi what's up?

00:33:06
Speaker 3: Just woke up, you.

00:33:07
Why do you seem happy?

00:33:10
Speaker 1: Because tonight's the night.

00:33:12
Speaker 3: You said that last night and the night before.

00:33:15
Speaker 1: I know, but it has to happen.

00:33:16
Tonight I'll be all alone.

00:33:18
Mom and Brian are sleeping over at a friend's house in Rhode

00:33:20
Island.

00:33:22
Speaker 3: So, yeah, tonight seems like the perfect night,

00:33:25
like you have all night to try different things.

00:33:28
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:33:30
Speaker 3: Do you think tonight really is the night you're going

00:33:31
to do it?

00:33:32
I think, there's a difference between saying I'm going to try

00:33:36
to commit suicide and I am going to commit suicide.

00:33:39
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to try.

00:33:42
Speaker 3: So you don't want it bad enough.

00:33:43
You already know you're going to fail because part of you

00:33:46
wants to fail, just saying yeah.

00:33:49
Yeah, what.

00:33:52
Speaker 1: It's just hard, Michelle.

00:33:54
Speaker 3: I know it is.

00:33:57
Speaker 1: In the few days leading to Conrad Roy taking his

00:33:59
life, the following messages were also exchanged between him

00:34:02
and Michelle I think your parents know you're in a really

00:34:04
bad place.

00:34:06
Speaker 3: I'm not saying they want you to do it, but honestly

00:34:08
I feel like they can accept it.

00:34:09
They know there's nothing they can do.

00:34:12
They've tried helping, everyone's tried, but there's a

00:34:15
point that comes to where there isn't anything anyone can do to

00:34:18
save you, not even yourself and you've hit that point and I

00:34:22
think your parents know that you've hit that point.

00:34:24
You said your mom saw a suicide thing on your computer and she

00:34:27
didn't say anything.

00:34:28
I think she knows it's on your mind and she's prepared for it.

00:34:31
Everyone will be sad for a while, but they'll get over it

00:34:35
and move on.

00:34:35
They won't be in depression.

00:34:41
I won't let that happen.

00:34:42
They know how sad you are and they know that you're doing this

00:34:43
to be happy and I think that they will understand and accept

00:34:45
it.

00:34:45
They will always carry you in their hearts.

00:34:48
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Michelle.

00:34:50
Speaker 3: They will move on for you because they know that's

00:34:51
what you would have wanted.

00:34:52
They know you wouldn't want them to be sad and depressed and

00:34:55
angry and guilty.

00:34:56
They know you want them to live their lives and be happy, so

00:35:00
they will for you.

00:35:00
You're right, you need to stop thinking about this and just do

00:35:03
it, because overthinking always kills overthinking.

00:35:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does.

00:35:07
I've been thinking about it for way too long.

00:35:11
Speaker 3: Always smile.

00:35:11
And yeah, you just have to do it.

00:35:13
You have everything you need.

00:35:15
There's no way you can fail.

00:35:16
Tonight is the night.

00:35:17
It's now or never.

00:35:18
And if you don't think about it , you won't think about failing.

00:35:22
You'll just do it and then think you'll succeed.

00:35:26
Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about.

00:35:26
I read so much about failed attempts going wrong that it's

00:35:28
gotten me discouraged.

00:35:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

00:35:31
So stop doing that.

00:35:32
There is more success than there are failures.

00:35:35
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?

00:35:36
Speaker 3: You have to look at it the way that people only fail

00:35:38
because they have the same mindset as you thinking they'll

00:35:41
fail.

00:35:42
Speaker 1: I really want to believe you.

00:35:44
Speaker 3: Why don't you?

00:35:44
You can't think about it, you just have to do it.

00:35:47
You said you were going to do it Like I don't get why you

00:35:50
aren't.

00:35:51
Speaker 1: I don't get it either .

00:35:51
I don't know.

00:35:53
Speaker 3: So I guess you just aren't going to do it then.

00:35:55
All that for nothing.

00:35:56
I'm just confused, like you were so ready and determined.

00:36:05
Speaker 1: I'm going to eventually.

00:36:05
Speaker 3: I really don't know what I'm waiting for, but I have

00:36:06
everything lined up.

00:36:07
Well, I guess just because you say you're going to do it, but

00:36:08
you don't.

00:36:09
But last night I know you really wanted to do it and I'm

00:36:12
not mad.

00:36:12
Well, I mean kind of, I guess Just because you always say

00:36:16
you're going to do it, but you don't.

00:36:19
But last night I knew you really wanted to and I'm not mad

00:36:22
.

00:36:22
You're not joking about this or bullshitting me, right?

00:36:25
I just want to make sure that you're being serious, like I

00:36:28
just want to make sure that you're being serious, like I

00:36:29
know you are, but I don't know.

00:36:30
You always say you're going to do it, but you never do.

00:36:32
I just want to make sure tonight's the real thing.

00:36:34
Don't do it in the driveway.

00:36:36
You'll be easily found.

00:36:39
Speaker 1: Find a spot, I don't know.

00:36:40
I'm thinking of a public place.

00:36:42
If I go somewhere private, they may call the cops.

00:36:48
Speaker 3: Well then someone will notice you.

00:36:48
Do you think you'll get caught?

00:36:49
I mean, it only takes 30 minutes, right, Just park your

00:36:53
car and sit there.

00:36:53
It'll take like 20 minutes.

00:36:55
It's not even a big deal.

00:36:58
Speaker 1: July 13th 2014.

00:37:00
The day of Conrad's suicide.

00:37:02
Michelle begins texting at 4.07 am.

00:37:08
Speaker 3: Conrad, hey you there .

00:37:11
Speaker 1: Hey, sorry, I fell asleep.

00:37:14
Speaker 3: It's okay.

00:37:14
Why haven't you done it yet?

00:37:15
Though?

00:37:23
I'm too messed up too.

00:37:23
What are you talking about my head?

00:37:24
You can't think about it, you just have to do it.

00:37:25
You said you were going to do it Like.

00:37:25
I don't get why you aren't.

00:37:28
Speaker 1: I don't get it either .

00:37:28
I don't know.

00:37:30
Speaker 3: So I guess you just aren't going to do it then.

00:37:31
All that for nothing.

00:37:32
I'm just confused, Like you were so ready and determined.

00:37:36
Speaker 1: I'm going to eventually.

00:37:37
I really don't know what I'm waiting for, but I have

00:37:41
everything lined up.

00:37:42
Speaker 3: No, you're not, Conrad.

00:37:43
Last night, was it?

00:37:44
You kept pushing it off and saying that you'll do it, but

00:37:46
you'll never do.

00:37:47
It's always going to be that way.

00:37:48
If you don't take action, you're just making it harder on

00:37:51
yourself by pushing it off.

00:37:52
You just have to do it.

00:37:53
Do you want to do it now?

00:37:56
Speaker 1: Is it too late?

00:37:57
I don't know.

00:37:58
It's already late outside.

00:37:59
I'm going to go back to sleep, love you.

00:38:02
I'll text you tomorrow.

00:38:04
Speaker 3: No, it's probably the best time now, because

00:38:06
everyone's sleeping.

00:38:07
Just go somewhere in your truck and no one's really out right

00:38:10
now, just because it's an awkward time.

00:38:11
If you don't do it now, you're never going to do it.

00:38:13
And you say you'll do it tonight, but you probably won't.

00:38:18
Speaker 1: Love you, Thank you.

00:38:19
Conrad Roy falls asleep Five hours later, at 9.03 am.

00:38:27
Michelle picks the conversation back up.

00:38:29
Speaker 3: Are you awake?

00:38:31
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:38:32
Speaker 3: Are you going to do it today?

00:38:34
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:38:35
Speaker 3: Like in the daytime.

00:38:37
Speaker 1: Should I.

00:38:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's less suspicious, you won't think

00:38:42
about it as much and you'll get it over with instead of waiting

00:38:45
until the night.

00:38:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, then I will, but like where?

00:38:50
Like I could go in any enclosed area.

00:38:54
Speaker 3: Go in your truck and drive in a parking lot somewhere

00:38:56
to park or something.

00:38:57
Do it now like early?

00:39:00
Speaker 1: Didn't we say, this was suspicious?

00:39:02
Speaker 3: No, I think night is more suspicious.

00:39:04
A kid sitting in his car?

00:39:05
Just turn on the radio and do it.

00:39:07
It won't be suspicious, it won't take long.

00:39:10
Speaker 1: Alright, I'm taking Holly for a walk.

00:39:14
Speaker 3: Okay.

00:39:16
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm like this.

00:39:19
Speaker 3: Sometimes things happen and we never have the

00:39:21
answers.

00:39:21
Why?

00:39:23
Speaker 1: Like why am I so hesitant lately?

00:39:25
Like two weeks ago I was willing to try everything and

00:39:28
now I'm worse, like really bad, and I'm not following through.

00:39:33
It's eating me inside.

00:39:36
Speaker 3: You're so hesitant because you keep overthinking it

00:39:38
and pushing it off.

00:39:39
You need to just do it, Conrad.

00:39:41
The more you push it off, the more it will eat at you.

00:39:43
You're ready and prepared.

00:39:45
All you have to do is turn the generator on, be free and happy.

00:39:48
No more pushing it off.

00:39:52
Speaker 1: No more waiting, you're right.

00:39:53
Speaker 3: If you want it as bad as you say you do, it's time to

00:39:56
do it today.

00:39:57
Speaker 1: Yep, no more waiting.

00:39:59
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm serious, like you can't even wait until

00:40:01
tonight.

00:40:02
You have to do it when you get back from your walk.

00:40:05
Speaker 1: Thank you.

00:40:07
Speaker 3: For what?

00:40:08
Speaker 1: Still being here.

00:40:10
Speaker 3: I would never leave you.

00:40:10
You're the love of my life, my boyfriend, my heart.

00:40:11
I would never leave you.

00:40:12
You're the love of my life, my boyfriend, my heart.

00:40:13
I'd never leave you.

00:40:16
Speaker 1: Aww.

00:40:17
Speaker 3: I love you.

00:40:19
Speaker 1: Love you too.

00:40:20
Speaker 3: When will you be back from your walk?

00:40:23
Speaker 1: Like five minutes.

00:40:25
Speaker 3: Okay, so are you gonna do it?

00:40:26
I guess, Well, I want you to be ready and sure.

00:40:32
Speaker 1: I don't know I'm freaking out again.

00:40:34
I'm overthinking.

00:40:36
Speaker 3: I thought you wanted to do this.

00:40:37
This time is right, you're ready, you just need to do it.

00:40:41
You can't keep living this way.

00:40:42
You just need to do it, like you did last time, and not think

00:40:46
about it.

00:40:46
And just do it, babe.

00:40:47
You can't keep doing this every day.

00:40:52
Speaker 1: I do want to, but like I'm freaking out for my

00:40:53
family, I guess I don't know.

00:40:55
Speaker 3: Conrad, I told you I'll take care of them.

00:40:58
Everyone will take care of them and make sure they won't be

00:41:00
alone and people will help them get through it.

00:41:02
We talked about this.

00:41:03
They will be okay and accept it .

00:41:05
People who commit suicide don't just think this much, they just

00:41:08
do it.

00:41:09
Speaker 1: I know, I know, thinking just drives me more

00:41:13
crazy.

00:41:14
Speaker 3: Exactly.

00:41:15
You need to just do it, Conrad.

00:41:16
You can't keep doing this every day.

00:41:19
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna do it today.

00:41:22
Speaker 3: Do you?

00:41:22
Speaker 1: promise, I promise, babe, I have to now.

00:41:26
Speaker 3: Like right now.

00:41:27
Speaker 1: Where do I go?

00:41:29
Speaker 3: You can't break a promise and just go on a quiet

00:41:32
parking lot or something.

00:41:34
Speaker 1: Okay.

00:41:35
Speaker 3: Go somewhere you know you won't get caught.

00:41:36
You can find a place, I know you can.

00:41:38
Are you doing it now?

00:41:40
Speaker 1: Still have no clue.

00:41:42
Speaker 3: Not finding a place to go isn't an excuse.

00:41:45
Speaker 1: I know where to go.

00:41:46
Speaker 3: Where.

00:41:47
Speaker 1: A parking ride.

00:41:49
Speaker 3: Ride.

00:41:50
Speaker 1: That's what it's called.

00:41:51
It's like a parking lot.

00:41:55
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, gotcha.

00:41:55
Speaker 1: Are you going now?

00:41:56
Either that or go to the beach.

00:41:58
Speaker 3: Why would you go to the beach?

00:42:00
Speaker 1: Well, that's where my mom's going.

00:42:02
Speaker 3: I thought you were just going to do it.

00:42:05
Speaker 1: My mom's making me go when I get home.

00:42:07
I'm going to do it.

00:42:09
Speaker 3: Okay, promise, I'm going kayaking anyways.

00:42:12
Speaker 1: Ha you love kayaking?

00:42:13
Yep so something I wish we could have done Make sure you

00:42:18
take your son kayaking.

00:42:19
Of course I will.

00:42:26
I'm in the worst pain right now , Like it's unbearable.

00:42:30
Speaker 3: I think it's time to do it now.

00:42:31
Then, do you agree, conrad?

00:42:34
Please answer me.

00:42:36
Speaker 1: I'm still at the beach.

00:42:37
Oh, okay sorry, I'm determined.

00:42:42
I'm happy to hear that I'm ready.

00:42:46
Speaker 3: Good, because it's time.

00:42:47
Babe, you know that when you get back from the beach you

00:42:50
gotta do it.

00:42:50
You're that when you get back from the beach.

00:42:54
Speaker 1: You gotta do it.

00:42:54
You're ready, You're determined it's the best time.

00:42:55
Okay, I will.

00:42:57
Speaker 3: Are you?

00:42:58
Speaker 1: back, no more thinking.

00:43:00
Speaker 3: Yes, no more thinking , you just need to do it.

00:43:02
No more waiting.

00:43:05
Speaker 1: On my way back.

00:43:06
I know where to go now.

00:43:09
Speaker 5: Where.

00:43:10
Speaker 1: A parking lot.

00:43:11
There's going to be no cars there at nine, so that's when

00:43:13
I'll be found.

00:43:15
Speaker 3: Okay, perfect, when will?

00:43:18
Speaker 1: you be home.

00:43:20
Speaker 3: Ten minutes.

00:43:21
Speaker 1: That's perfect, okay, and well.

00:43:26
Yeah, I don't know.

00:43:27
Like I don't want to kill anyone else with me, you won't.

00:43:33
When they open the door, they won't know.

00:43:35
It's odorless and colorless.

00:43:37
Speaker 3: You're overturning, they will see the generator and

00:43:42
realize you breathed in the CO.

00:43:43
Speaker 1: So should I keep it in the back seat or front?

00:43:46
Speaker 3: In front.

00:43:47
You can write it on a piece of paper and tape it on saying

00:43:49
carbon monoxide or something, if you're scared.

00:43:52
Speaker 1: I was thinking that, but someone might see it before

00:43:55
it actually happens.

00:43:57
Speaker 3: Well wait, the generator is going to be on

00:43:59
because you'll be passed out.

00:44:00
So they'll know you used carbon poisoning.

00:44:02
It's not loud, is it?

00:44:06
Speaker 1: Not really.

00:44:08
Speaker 3: Okay, good, are you going to do it now?

00:44:15
Speaker 1: I'm home.

00:44:16
Speaker 3: Okay.

00:44:21
Speaker 1: Ah what.

00:44:22
I don't know.

00:44:23
I'm stressing.

00:44:32
Speaker 3: You're fine, it's going to be okay.

00:44:33
You just just gotta do it.

00:44:34
Babe, you can't think about it.

00:44:35
Okay, I got this.

00:44:36
Yes, you do.

00:44:36
I believe in you.

00:44:37
Did you delete?

00:44:38
Speaker 1: the messages.

00:44:39
Yes, but you're gonna keep messaging me.

00:44:44
Speaker 3: I will until you turn on the generator.

00:44:45
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'm bringing my sisters for ice

00:44:47
cream.

00:44:48
Speaker 3: So will you do it when you get back?

00:44:50
Speaker 1: Yep, I'll go right there, okay, okay, I'm

00:44:58
procrastinating.

00:45:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.

00:45:03
Speaker 1: Are you back, yep?

00:45:04
Speaker 3: So it's time.

00:45:06
Speaker 1: Oh, it's been time.

00:45:08
Speaker 3: Are you going to?

00:45:09
Speaker 1: do it now.

00:45:10
I just don't know how to leave them you know, just say you're

00:45:15
going to the store or something Like.

00:45:16
I want them to know that I love them.

00:45:18
Speaker 3: They know.

00:45:18
That's one thing.

00:45:19
They definitely know You're overthinking.

00:45:23
Speaker 1: I know I'm overthinking.

00:45:24
I've been overthinking for a while now.

00:45:27
Speaker 3: I know you just have to do it like you said.

00:45:29
Are you going to do it now?

00:45:33
Speaker 1: I though I know you just have to do it like you said

00:45:35
.

00:45:35
Speaker 3: Are you going to do it?

00:45:36
Speaker 1: now.

00:45:36
I haven't left yet.

00:45:37
Why Leave him now?

00:45:39
Speaker 3: Okay, you can do this .

00:45:43
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm almost there.

00:45:45
July 13th 2014, 6.25pm.

00:45:52
This was the last text message before Conrad took his life.

00:45:57
There were two phone calls that were placed after these texts.

00:46:01
The first, conrad and Michelle, spoke for 43 minutes,

00:46:06
presumably once Conrad gets to the back parking lot of the

00:46:09
Kmart in Fairhaven and prepares for his suicide.

00:46:11
The second call was 46 minutes where Conrad starts to freak out

00:46:16
.

00:46:16
Once he feels the carbon monoxide poisoning taking effect

00:46:19
, he gets out of the truck.

00:46:22
This, according to the state of Massachusetts, is when Michelle

00:46:27
Carter tells Conrad Roy to get back in the truck and end his

00:46:31
life.

00:46:31
She stays on the phone and listens to Conrad take his last

00:46:36
breath, dying from carbon monoxide poisoning.

00:46:39
Three hours later, she sends the following text messages to

00:46:47
him, presumably to cover her tracks, knowing full well Conrad

00:46:52
is dead.

00:46:56
Speaker 3: Please answer me.

00:46:56
I'm scared.

00:47:00
Are you okay?

00:47:00
I love you.

00:47:01
Please answer.

00:47:06
Speaker 1: Conrad needed someone to help him, to tell him not to

00:47:09
go through with it, to tell him that he is loved, to tell him

00:47:11
not to go through with it, to tell him that he is loved, to

00:47:13
tell him that his life matters.

00:47:15
Sadly, the only person Conrad felt he had was Michelle, the

00:47:21
one who was encouraging him to get back in the truck to finish

00:47:24
the job.

00:47:24
She could have stopped him, but she didn't, and she stayed on

00:47:30
the phone to make sure he went through with it.

00:48:06
Speaker 2: Such a hard chapter man, such a hard chapter God.

00:48:11
The amount of cries for help he even says in the text message

00:48:15
with the person who's trying to persuade him to do it yeah, is

00:48:17
it's.

00:48:18
It's infuriating Like this is where I would throw Michelle off

00:48:21
a bridge Like I wouldn't care at all.

00:48:24
Speaker 1: Throwing off a bridge is a good way of putting it.

00:48:26
Speaker 2: Yes, and, from a parent's standpoint, it breaks

00:48:30
my heart.

00:48:30
It breaks my heart because it's like dude, he like, like you

00:48:34
said at the end of the chapter, he only needed someone to tell

00:48:36
him he loved, that they always loved.

00:48:38
That was it?

00:48:38
Yep, that was it.

00:48:42
Speaker 1: Now I I kind of associate this to an extreme

00:48:46
version of bullying.

00:48:48
Okay, yeah, I would see when I absolutely despise bullying,

00:48:55
Like anytime I see a video or anything of someone bullying,

00:48:59
like I want that person dead.

00:49:05
Speaker 2: How were you growing up though?

00:49:08
Speaker 4: I went through.

00:49:09
Speaker 2: I'm not saying were you a bully.

00:49:10
I'm saying like, like, if you saw bullying in in school or be

00:49:13
like as as young davey, young davey, young davey, well, did

00:49:17
you stop it?

00:49:18
Were you?

00:49:18
Because I mean, I'll be honest, I, I always just turn a cheek.

00:49:22
You know what I mean.

00:49:23
Speaker 1: I, I wasn't the guy who, all right well got in this

00:49:29
is where the alcohol probably shouldn't be a part of this

00:49:31
podcast, because when you ask me questions like this, you're

00:49:34
going to be opening up a buck of fucking worms here.

00:49:35
So Davey lived multiple lives when he was a child.

00:49:46
Speaker 2: Oh, ok, so you were.

00:49:46
Just you were Ted Bundy, that through life right now, yeah,

00:49:48
gotcha, oh, okay, so you were just, you were Ted Bundy that

00:49:49
threw life right off, yeah, gotcha.

00:49:52
Speaker 1: So Davey, when he was younger, would wear

00:49:56
hand-me-down clothes and was not part of the cool kids.

00:49:59
So young Davey would get bullied a lot.

00:50:02
It wasn't until probably seventh, eighth grade, where you

00:50:08
got your growth spurt eighth grade, where you got your growth

00:50:14
spurt, davey uh began to play football and made some changes

00:50:15
in his life and was now accepted .

00:50:17
Okay.

00:50:18
So I've been on both ends of the spectrum where, uh, I have

00:50:23
been bullied and I've seen bullying outside of myself and,

00:50:29
uh, every single time, yes, I, I would stop it, you know.

00:50:33
Speaker 2: Long answer to a short question.

00:50:35
Speaker 1: No, I mean, hey, you know, it's insight in a day in

00:50:37
young davy's life so it's just like kind of like, when I see a

00:50:41
bully, like like there's a serious, like fucking hate that

00:50:46
I feel for these, for that person.

00:50:48
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, yeah, oh, oh, yeah.

00:50:51
I regret, like everybody looks back and regrets certain

00:50:54
situations.

00:50:54
I was never a bully.

00:50:56
I didn't bully people, but it was more like I never.

00:50:59
Speaker 3: It's not your business yeah.

00:51:00
Speaker 2: It was more like not my business, just kept walking.

00:51:02
That's how I made it through high school.

00:51:05
You know what I mean Not my business.

00:51:06
You know what I mean.

00:51:07
I'm on my own path.

00:51:08
Sorry, sorry, buddy, and I regret it.

00:51:10
You know what I mean Because I saw that.

00:51:11
Speaker 1: You know everybody sees some messed up stuff Right

00:51:14
Now, when you put that in the context of you know, when I say

00:51:18
bully now in this case Michelle, she knows, like I don't want to

00:51:33
say she knows that she's doing wrong, because I don't think she

00:51:34
knew that she was doing wrong.

00:51:35
She had to have known.

00:51:35
I think she was.

00:51:36
Uh, what is it?

00:51:36
What is it called dysphoria?

00:51:36
Is it dysphoria where not connected you're not connected

00:51:38
to the situation?

00:51:38
You know, and to me she is, is, is the bully, she's pressuring

00:51:45
him, she's, she's, I don't know because it wasn't even.

00:51:48
Speaker 2: It was aggressively pressuring Right, Aggressively

00:51:51
Right.

00:51:52
And he is Conrad.

00:51:53
Yup, yup, you do it.

00:51:54
You're thinking about it.

00:51:55
Stop basically saying I'm topping a pussy, yeah, Like

00:51:58
fucking Bitch, leave me the fuck alone how, you know, like shit.

00:52:03
Speaker 1: Now, like reading through these things, it just

00:52:06
angers me because he's like oh, you know, huh, you know, I don't

00:52:09
know if I want to, or you know yeah, yeah she's like well, you

00:52:12
said you're gonna do it.

00:52:12
You're never gonna do it.

00:52:13
You know she's not fucking nagging.

00:52:14
He's like well, you know, yeah, I will do it.

00:52:16
No, no, no.

00:52:17
Whatever you said, you said that yesterday stop being a fucking

00:52:19
liar you know it's like oh my god, I want to punch her square

00:52:22
in her fucking unibrow.

00:52:23
Fuck, she does have a unibrow.

00:52:25
She's fucking ugly as fuck.

00:52:26
But anyway, no fuck her fuck her.

00:52:30
Yes, yes, yes you know, and and the thing that, like, drives me

00:52:37
fucking insane and this is like the.

00:52:39
The key to the whole fucking thing and god, I wish I could go

00:52:43
back in time and I wish I could be there in that situation is

00:52:47
when he gets out of the, out of the truck, and he panics, and

00:52:54
she's on the phone with him at the time.

00:52:55
Yeah, and she's like get back in the truck.

00:52:58
Oh, get back in the truck.

00:53:00
Like, right there, like regardless of talking about it.

00:53:06
Yes, you know, I want to kill myself.

00:53:07
Yes, I want to do this.

00:53:08
Yes, I want to do this.

00:53:09
Yes, yes, yes, yeah, I'm want to do this.

00:53:10
Yes, I want to do this.

00:53:10
Yes, yes, yes, yeah, I'm gonna do it.

00:53:11
I'm gonna like that.

00:53:12
That's all one thing, that's, that's, that's whatever.

00:53:13
Okay, that's obviously an issue .

00:53:15
You need to take care of it.

00:53:16
When you are doing it and you back out of it, like that tells

00:53:24
you he does not want to fuck deep down inside, he does not

00:53:28
want to die.

00:53:29
Yeah, you know what I mean.

00:53:31
For sure, he's crying for help, he needs help and this fucking

00:53:36
bitch is on the phone.

00:53:39
Get back in the fucking truck, conrad.

00:53:41
Get back in the fucking truck.

00:53:44
Oh my god, I want to stab her square in the fucking eyeball.

00:53:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that you, you know all the like,

00:53:53
definitely a shout out to everybody who's listening and

00:53:56
all that stuff.

00:53:56
If you're feeling something, if you're going through some shit

00:54:00
doesn't matter.

00:54:00
Don't ever rely on one person.

00:54:02
No, seek help.

00:54:03
Yep, call a hotline.

00:54:04
Do whatever you need to do at that point, because you are

00:54:07
loved, you're wanted.

00:54:08
Yes.

00:54:13
Speaker 1: A hundred, because you are loved, you're wanted.

00:54:14
Yes, 100%.

00:54:15
And if it doesn't feel like it, I can tell you I've lost people

00:54:17
that way and there is an enormous void that will never be

00:54:25
filled again.

00:54:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the hardest part.

00:54:28
You think that you're doing people a favor at that point,

00:54:29
like I'm just a burden, yeah, and it's so.

00:54:30
That's the hardest part.

00:54:31
You think that you're doing people a favor.

00:54:32
At that point, like I'm just a burden.

00:54:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

00:54:33
Speaker 2: It's so sad because it's You're not, you're not,

00:54:37
you're not a burden, nope, so at this point she's completely

00:54:40
complacent in his death.

00:54:41
Yes, 100%, I don't.

00:54:43
There's no backing out.

00:54:52
Speaker 1: You have contributed to his suicide.

00:54:53
Yes, yep.

00:54:53
And so now, in the next chapter , we will see what the state of

00:54:55
Massachusetts feels about Michelle and her text messages

00:55:00
to Conrad.

00:55:02
Speaker 4: What I am doing is I'm looking at myself so

00:55:06
negatively, looking at myself, minusc, a little particle in the

00:55:13
face of this earth.

00:55:14
It's no good.

00:55:16
Trash Will never be successful, never have a life, never have

00:55:23
kids.

00:55:24
Just never learn, because depression can mean you don't

00:55:33
like yourself.

00:55:34
The sooner I like myself, the better I'm going to be.

00:55:39
I have a lot going.

00:55:41
I do have a lot going for me.

00:55:43
I'm like a f***ing captain.

00:55:45
I just got a job from the Boston Duck Tours to captain

00:55:50
their boat.

00:55:51
Like that's a huge accomplishment to be a captain.

00:55:57
Listen, I just have to get the cobwebs out, turn the gears.

00:56:07
The gears need to be turning, turn them gears.

00:56:12
That's what I gotta do, because I'm look at me.

00:56:19
I got nice teeth.

00:56:21
I got a nice smile.

00:56:23
I'm introverted, nice and caring.

00:56:28
That's some benefits.

00:56:30
I'm a nice kid.

00:56:31
I have a lot to offer someone, but it comes to a point where

00:56:40
I'm just too nice.

00:56:48
Speaker 1: Why did Michelle demand that Conrad take his life

00:56:50
Attention?

00:56:53
Michelle posted many times on Facebook about how her boyfriend

00:56:57
had committed suicide.

00:56:58
She posted about how she missed him.

00:57:00
She started a baseball fundraiser in Conrad's name in

00:57:05
her hometown, 40 minutes away from where Conrad lived.

00:57:08
Many believed this fundraiser should have been held in

00:57:11
Conrad's hometown so it would be easier for his family and

00:57:14
friends to attend.

00:57:15
Michelle argued against it.

00:57:17
Not long after Conrad's death, the police went through his

00:57:22
phone and saw almost immediately the text from Michelle.

00:57:25
These text messages disturbed the investigators.

00:57:28
It was soon after that investigators obtained a search

00:57:32
warrant.

00:57:32
They visited Michelle at school and took her phone.

00:57:38
In 2015, she was arrested and charged with involuntary

00:57:41
manslaughter and her trial began two years later, in 2017.

00:57:46
Her defense talked a lot about her med change and how that

00:57:52
affected her.

00:57:52
They said it clouded her brain and she was enmeshed in a

00:57:57
delusion.

00:57:57
She was unable to form intent because she was so grandiose.

00:58:00
Dr Bragan testified he tried to show that his suicide made her

00:58:06
snap to reality, even if only briefly.

00:58:08
She texted Conrad a day after the suicide saying Did you do

00:58:13
something, conrad?

00:58:14
I love you so much.

00:58:15
Please tell me.

00:58:16
This is a joke.

00:58:17
I'm sorry.

00:58:18
I didn't think you were being serious, conrad.

00:58:20
Please don't leave us like this .

00:58:21
Two months later, she also texted Conrad to tell him that

00:58:26
she raised $2 from the baseball fundraiser she put

00:58:29
together.

00:58:29
Dr Bregan stated that she imagines him looking down upon

00:58:34
her.

00:58:35
Could her medication really cloud her judgment that much, or

00:58:41
is she texting these things after the fact to try to save

00:58:44
face and aid in her trial?

00:58:45
It's hard to say.

00:58:48
Psychological medications are powerful, but at some point

00:58:52
doesn't some part of her brain kick in and make her question

00:58:55
her words, the way she is behaving?

00:58:57
Some could also argue that, being a mostly online

00:59:02
relationship, michelle could have viewed Conrad as some

00:59:05
character from one of her movies , that he wasn't real and that

00:59:09
she was playing a part and didn't realize the weight that

00:59:11
her words held.

00:59:12
They had only met five times in the two years they had been a

00:59:16
couple.

00:59:16
Conrad's family didn't even know they were dating.

00:59:19
They just thought they were friends because they never saw

00:59:22
each other.

00:59:23
On June 5th 2017, michelle Carter waived the right to have

00:59:28
a trial by jury.

00:59:29
Judge Lawrence Moniz is to be the one to decide Michelle's

00:59:34
future.

00:59:36
On June 16th 2017, michelle Carter was found guilty of

00:59:41
involuntary manslaughter.

00:59:42
He describes her behavior as reckless.

00:59:44
She was sentenced to two and a half years in prison, with 15

00:59:48
months served and the rest suspended.

00:59:50
She was also sentenced to five years probation.

00:59:53
After nearly two years of unsuccessful court appeals,

00:59:58
Carter began her sentence in 2019.

01:00:00
And in January 2020, she was released early from prison for

01:00:05
good behavior.

01:00:06
She had been a model inmate who stayed out of trouble and that

01:00:10
she participated in jail programs.

01:00:11
She was a part of the Bible study and she worked in the

01:00:15
kitchen where she got along with all of the inmates of the Bible

01:00:20
study and she worked in the kitchen where she got along with

01:00:21
all of the inmates.

01:00:22
Michelle's attorney says that she is remorseful and that she

01:00:23
has come to grips with it and that she understands.

01:00:26
She has declined to speak to any media and never spoke or

01:00:31
testified in her trial, so we've never heard her part of the

01:00:34
story in her own words.

01:00:37
For Conrad Roy, he had so much going for him.

01:00:40
He was determined and motivated .

01:00:42
He had a family that loved him.

01:00:44
He could have had a great life, but we or his family will never

01:00:50
see that happen.

01:00:50
His life was cut short long before it should have been.

01:00:55
He will be deeply missed for the rest of his family's life.

01:01:02
It's sad, but when a person is depressed, they don't see the

01:01:06
good or they see the good as not good enough.

01:01:09
The sadness, emptiness, loneliness outweighs any of the

01:01:14
good.

01:01:14
People try to reassure you, to tell you they love you, to tell

01:01:17
you that they wouldn't want to liveure you, to tell you they

01:01:18
love you, to tell you that they wouldn't want to live without

01:01:20
you.

01:01:20
But your pain is too heavy.

01:01:22
So when someone you love, and that is supposed to love you,

01:01:29
eggs you on in these fragile moments, it just confirms your

01:01:32
negative thoughts.

01:01:33
You're drowning already and instead of throwing you a life

01:01:37
vest, they step on your head to push you under even more.

01:01:42
Michelle may not have physically killed Conrad, but she didn't

01:01:45
throw him a life vest either.

01:01:47
That is not love.

01:01:49
Conrad deserved love.

01:01:51
Michelle was living in a fantasy and Conrad was just

01:01:56
playing a role.

01:01:57
Yes, her meds could have played her huge part, her delusions

01:02:03
and intoxication.

01:02:04
There could have been small moments of clarity where she

01:02:07
could have told his mother or sister what was happening.

01:02:09
She pushed him and pushed him to follow through with ending

01:02:12
his life.

01:02:13
No person with a conscience does that.

01:02:16
Even Dr Bregan was dumbfounded as to why she acted the way she

01:02:20
did Her own doctor.

01:02:23
Conrad will never get to tell his side of the story, but we

01:02:28
can learn from it and try to prevent it from happening again.

01:02:34
His mother, lynn, resolved to change the law.

01:02:36
In most states there are statutes to criminalize suicide

01:02:41
coercion.

01:02:42
Massachusetts is not one of those states.

01:02:45
Lynn proposed legislation dubbed Conrad's Law.

01:02:49
It would impose a punishment of up to five years for anyone

01:02:53
convicted of pressuring another to take their own life.

01:02:55
She hopes that this law will act as a deterrent to prevent

01:03:00
another person from losing their life.

01:03:01
Everything that Conrad Roy ever was or ever will be is lost.

01:03:07
If you or someone you know is thinking about taking their own

01:03:14
life, you are not alone.

01:03:16
In the United States, the National Suicide Prevention

01:03:21
Hotline 1-800-273-TALK that's 1-800-273-8255.

01:03:30
The Trevor Helpline support design for lesbian, gay,

01:03:35
bisexual and transgender youth and young adults 866-4U-TREVOR

01:03:42
that's 866-488-7386.

01:03:52
Speaker 2: All right, I got to start off with two and a half

01:03:55
years for manslaughter.

01:03:58
That's disgusting.

01:03:59
Yeah, that's disgusting.

01:03:59
Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:03:59
Speaker 2: That's disgusting.

01:04:00
She deserves so much more.

01:04:01
She might as well put him you know what I mean.

01:04:04
She might as well have put him in that car and oh yeah, you

01:04:08
know what I mean Drove him, drove him, held him there.

01:04:10
Held him there At gunpoint.

01:04:11
Yeah, that's sickening, and getting out on good behavior.

01:04:15
It's like that horrible story that you hear so often where

01:04:18
they don't deserve.

01:04:18
Of course, of course she was a model inmate, bible study and

01:04:22
this, and that, like you know, she was going to be like that

01:04:25
Anything she could to get out of there, absolutely.

01:04:27
Speaker 1: Yep, now, the thing that kind of stands out to me,

01:04:32
and it's a quote that I believe Conrad's aunt had made, and she

01:04:37
had said that Michelle Carter, uh, did not take part in

01:04:43
Conrad's death.

01:04:43
She was the sole reason, which, which I mean I'm not taking

01:04:52
away, you know, I'm not saying that he didn't have his, his

01:04:54
issues or whatnot, but she 100% spearheaded this.

01:05:00
Yeah, you know, when there were numerous times in all those

01:05:05
conversations where you know, he was like well, I don't know,

01:05:08
you know, I'm worried about my parents, I'm worried about this.

01:05:12
You know what, if I, you know, the normal person would be like

01:05:16
yeah, you're right're right, your parents love you, your

01:05:19
parents are going to miss you, your parents, you know, if she's

01:05:21
like, no, your parents will be fine.

01:05:24
Speaker 2: They'll be all right.

01:05:24
How do you feel about the defense's strategy to get her

01:05:29
manslaughter by saying that the medication was the reason this

01:05:33
happened?

01:05:34
And you got to love lawyers.

01:05:35
They're such especially defense lawyers.

01:05:37
They'll find a needle in a haystack.

01:05:39
You know what I mean.

01:05:40
Like come on, man, yeah.

01:05:42
Speaker 1: No, I don't believe it.

01:05:43
I don't buy into any of that.

01:05:45
Yeah, I mean, did she have her own issues?

01:05:48
Absolutely Sure she did.

01:05:49
Speaker 2: But being on Prozac doesn't convince you to kill

01:06:04
like, have you convince someone to kill themselves, right?

01:06:05
Speaker 1: so?

01:06:05
So I mean, what word am I looking for?

01:06:06
Uh, I think I mentioned it before like a dysphoria, you

01:06:07
know, between reality and you know whatever fucking made-up

01:06:11
world you have in your head.

01:06:12
You know like she was.

01:06:13
I'm not saying it was a fucking medication or whatever, which I

01:06:15
don't know.

01:06:15
She thought that.

01:06:17
No, I don't want to say that because it's actually given her

01:06:19
an excuse.

01:06:21
Yeah, yeah.

01:06:22
So how did?

01:06:23
How did the police?

01:06:24
Did they go through Conrad's phone?

01:06:25
Did they like, how did they get to?

01:06:28
Speaker 2: Michelle Pulling the records you're saying You're

01:06:31
right Now.

01:06:32
Speaker 1: I'm sure at some point during the conversation

01:06:34
she's like get back in the truck , Conrad, make sure.

01:06:36
Like get back in the truck, conrad, make sure you get.

01:06:38
Get back in the truck.

01:06:39
Oh, and delete your text messages please.

01:06:40
Yeah, before you die, just delete your text messages, you

01:06:43
know.

01:06:43
So I wonder if, like, there were still some messages left on

01:06:45
his phone yeah, there could have been something.

01:06:48
Speaker 2: There had to have been something on the phone that

01:06:49
triggered them to be like whoa yeah, like like even back past

01:06:52
previous conversations or something right that made them

01:06:55
go whoa yeah and pull the full transcript, the whole thing,

01:06:58
yeah yeah, because she's like after, after he did it, she was

01:07:03
on the phone when, with him, when he died, he took his last

01:07:06
breath, she, she knew he was dead.

01:07:08
Speaker 1: Yep, and then, like you know, a minute later she was

01:07:12
like text me, I miss you, I love you, please text me, you

01:07:14
know, pretending like she didn't know what the fuck was going on

01:07:16
and and is this a joke?

01:07:18
Yeah, and then like the next day, she's like did you do

01:07:22
something, Conrad?

01:07:23
I love you so much.

01:07:24
Please tell me this is a joke.

01:07:26
I'm so sorry.

01:07:27
I didn't think you were serious about killing yourself, Conrad.

01:07:30
Please don't leave us like this Bitch.

01:07:31
Shut the fuck up.

01:07:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm trying to save your ass.

01:07:35
Speaker 1: No offense to the other bitches out there, but I'm

01:07:37
just kidding Sexy bitches, sexy motherfuckers, but you know

01:07:43
what I mean.

01:07:44
It's like she kept up this charade for months, months,

01:07:52
having a fucking having a charity baseball tournament in

01:07:56
her town.

01:07:58
Speaker 2: Her town, yeah.

01:07:58
His Her town, yeah.

01:08:00
Talk about selfish.

01:08:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're like , wouldn't it make sense to have

01:08:03
it in his town where all his family and friends no no.

01:08:06
Nope, it'd be right here.

01:08:08
Make sure you guys all help me plan it.

01:08:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, the posts on social media.

01:08:15
Speaker 4: Yeah.

01:08:15
Speaker 2: Like she wasn't directly involved in this posts

01:08:19
on social media.

01:08:19
Like she wasn't directly involved in this right.

01:08:21
It's almost like it's like sociopath right like she.

01:08:22
She clearly shows tendencies of being a sociopath.

01:08:25
Speaker 1: She texted one of her friends, I think I may have had

01:08:28
a part in conrad's death.

01:08:30
You think you may have.

01:08:32
Speaker 2: You drove him to it, fuck now that's interesting,

01:08:37
because is there another charge, other than manslaughter, that

01:08:41
you could give for a situation like I feel like this is very

01:08:44
well, this is like the first you know that's what I mean.

01:08:48
It's a very like groundbreaking right criminal case at this

01:08:51
point because at this point I mean there's a lot of we hear

01:08:55
stories about cyber bullying into people like kids committing

01:08:57
themselves because of our kids committing suicide because of

01:09:01
cyber bullying.

01:09:02
And you know, I mean kids online, bullying them but they

01:09:05
don't die because of a specific person is telling them to they

01:09:08
have they say like a random threat might be like go, go kill

01:09:11
yourself

01:09:12
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

01:09:12
Like this guy, yeah but there's not.

01:09:15
Speaker 2: it's like this there's a connection to this one

01:09:18
person just egging and egging Someone who who Conrad looked at

01:09:23
as someone who loved him.

01:09:26
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, and you know this isn't like some,

01:09:30
some vicious person that you know is beating the shit out of

01:09:33
somebody every single day.

01:09:34
You know, conrad didn't, didn't .

01:09:37
Speaker 2: There's some it's someone that that you trust,

01:09:39
right?

01:09:39
You know, conrad didn't.

01:09:39
Speaker 1: It's someone that you trust, right?

01:09:40
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

01:09:41
Yeah, someone that you can find and you're talking to him about

01:09:43
suicide, which is, you know, not easy to do in general.

01:09:46
Right, because in my eyes, it's not manslaughter, it's not

01:09:50
murder, but it's not manslaughter, it's a weird

01:09:52
in-between.

01:09:53
It's a weird in-between, right?

01:10:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she Because it wasn't accidental.

01:10:02
No, this was actually.

01:10:03
It was done intentionally.

01:10:04
Yeah, I mean they basically.

01:10:06
She basically put the idea in his head.

01:10:08
But I think where the debate came from as far as what to

01:10:12
charge her with is that Conrad was already showed a history.

01:10:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, that didn't help him in the court of law by

01:10:21
any means and you know the defense leaned on that heavy

01:10:24
Right.

01:10:25
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know .

01:10:26
I think it's definitely more than manslaughter.

01:10:33
We need to follow Flayton over there on Instagram to give us

01:10:35
some legal advice on what this would be.

01:10:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just know in my deep heart.

01:10:39
Speaker 1: It's definitely more manslaughter, I would say but

01:10:43
that's what she got and that's the way it stands.

01:10:46
That's the precedent.

01:10:47
Speaker 2: Anybody who knows, let's open it up.

01:10:49
Comment on the episode.

01:10:51
Talk to us on Patreon.

01:10:52
What is your take?

01:10:53
Do you think it was well-deserved?

01:10:55
Murder one, murder two.

01:10:57
Murder three.

01:11:00
Speaker 1: Manslaughter.

01:11:00
Do you think it was well deserved?

01:11:02
Murder one murder, two murder, three manslaughter I don't know.

01:11:03
I don't know either, but she definitely deserved something

01:11:04
and she got it not.

01:11:05
Probably not what she deserved.

01:11:06
Uh, what was it?

01:11:08
A year, year and a half, she was in jail yes, with good

01:11:11
behavior.

01:11:11
Speaker 2: With good behavior, two and a half year sentence

01:11:14
well, that was another tough one .

01:11:16
Speaker 1: But to lighten the mood, if there is such a thing

01:11:18
as lightening the mood in true crime, next up is the

01:11:22
motherfucking virgin.

01:11:23
All right, this is the case of a motherfucking virgin.

01:11:30
Speaker 2: The pun on that is great.

01:11:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was a virgin who lost his virginity to

01:11:37
his mother's dead corpse.

01:11:39
Speaker 2: Literally a mother fucking virgin.

01:11:40
He's a mother fucking virgin.

01:11:43
Speaker 1: I came up with that all by myself, dude genius.

01:11:46
All right, but this isn't the only fucked up thing to happen

01:11:49
on this day, so here we go.

01:11:51
Here's the story.

01:11:51
So, on March 26, 2014, at 7 pm, an 18-year-old young man from

01:11:58
Corpus Christi, texas, named Kevin Davis, left several

01:12:01
scribbled notes in his mother's apartment before hopping on his

01:12:04
bicycle with a plan to run away.

01:12:06
He rode his bike through the night along the railroad tracks

01:12:09
for approximately 10 miles.

01:12:10
When he dumped his bike and backpack and some brush along

01:12:13
the tracks, he walked another 10 miles to the town of Robstown,

01:12:17
where he decided he didn't want to run away anymore.

01:12:20
Speaker 2: Isn't that?

01:12:20
Don't all kids go through that?

01:12:22
One time you tell your mom, fuck you, I'm gonna run away.

01:12:25
You pack a bag and then you walk down the street and turn

01:12:28
right back around.

01:12:29
Speaker 1: I mean, I've done that a couple times, yeah well,

01:12:31
when I was a kid, obviously we just talked about our ages and

01:12:33
shit.

01:12:33
But when I was a kid we did the typical hobo stick Stick, the

01:12:40
hobo stick tied to the, you know with your clothes, and I must

01:12:43
have ran away from home like two times, fine, mom.

01:12:45
I made it to the corner and I sat there, waited for somebody

01:12:48
to come chase me down.

01:12:49
Nobody came and I'm like God damn it.

01:12:51
Well, I guess I'll go back then .

01:12:52
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah because your mom the whole time is go go

01:12:59
.

01:12:59
Yeah, see you later.

01:13:00
She knows you're going to become raped.

01:13:01
Where are you going?

01:13:02
Speaker 1: What do you think?

01:13:03
There's no way you're going to go.

01:13:04
Yeah, all right.

01:13:10
So about 10 am the next day, on March 27th, this young man,

01:13:13
kevin Davis.

01:13:13
He walked to a random house located on the 3800 block of

01:13:17
County Road 61.

01:13:17
A man by the name of Timothy Johnson and his wife had just

01:13:22
let their dog inside and sat down to watch TV when they heard

01:13:23
a knock on their door.

01:13:24
Johnson got up to answer and saw Davis standing outside.

01:13:26
Now Davis had asked to use the phone.

01:13:28
You know, obviously you have to be a bit cautious.

01:13:31
You know, when there's a random man standing outside your home.

01:13:34
Yeah, I'm not answering that door.

01:13:36
Yeah, I'm talking to him through the ring Well.

01:13:38
Speaker 2: I'm not answering that door.

01:13:38
Yeah, I'm talking to him through the ring.

01:13:39
Well, I mean, this is 2014.

01:13:40
I know God.

01:13:41
Thank God for technology.

01:13:42
I know.

01:13:42
Speaker 1: Imagine you had to answer the door back in the day.

01:13:45
God forbid.

01:13:45
Speaker 2: I hide behind my couch when somebody comes to my

01:13:47
door, I still do that, as a grown adult, I know.

01:13:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wait still, but anyway.

01:13:56
But yeah, I mean, some random dude walks up to your house, you

01:13:59
know, yeah, I mean I'll call someone for you.

01:14:02
You know you're not going to come into my house.

01:14:04
So Johnson was like, yeah, you know who can I call for you?

01:14:09
You know?

01:14:09
Davis was like, yeah, can you call the police?

01:14:12
I have committed a murder, holy shit.

01:14:15
So Johnson's wife immediately called 9-1-1 to report the

01:14:21
situation to the nueces county sheriff's deputy, uh, who was

01:14:23
dispatched to the to the home.

01:14:25
Now, while they were waiting for the police, johnson stepped

01:14:27
outside dude, this, this dude has brass fucking balls.

01:14:30
Yeah, and as davis again, what had occurred?

01:14:33
Not believing him at first.

01:14:34
And uh, davis replied I killed my mother with a hammer.

01:14:38
I beat her to death.

01:14:39
So he continues to tell the guy that.

01:14:42
You know he ran away and he rode on his bike on the railroad

01:14:45
tracks along Highway 44.

01:14:46
He told Johnson that he ditched his bike during the night and

01:14:49
walked the rest of the way.

01:14:50
He got tired of running.

01:14:51
So he found the first house with their door open.

01:14:54
Jesus, timothy Johnson would typically not be home at this

01:14:58
time.

01:14:58
He would be at work.

01:15:00
You know this is during the day , 10 am.

01:15:06
This day in particular, he decided to take the day off to

01:15:07
spend with his wife.

01:15:08
Otherwise it just would have been her home alone.

01:15:10
Now it's kind of scary to think that if the husband wasn't home

01:15:16
, yeah, there's always that what if?

01:15:18
Speaker 2: If he was still in that mood, right?

01:15:20
Speaker 1: So if Davis showed up and it wasn't Timothy Johnson,

01:15:23
it was his wife, does that whole interaction go differently?

01:15:26
Right, but now he saw Timothy and he's like, oh, you're a guy

01:15:30
I'm backing down, kind of thing, oh my God, yeah, because Kevin

01:15:34
Davis, he's not an imposing man.

01:15:36
I mean he's 18 at the time, kind of shortish, skinny, not

01:15:41
very imposing, and we'll listen to bits of the interview coming

01:15:48
up, but he sounds like a decent young man.

01:15:51
You know what I mean.

01:15:51
So who knows?

01:15:53
Speaker 2: Well, he had to have given off a non-threatening vibe

01:15:55
if he just went outside to talk to him, right?

01:15:55
You know what I mean.

01:15:56
Speaker 1: So the sheriff's deputy arrives and Davis

01:15:56
confirmed what he to have given off a non-threatening vibe, if

01:15:58
he, just if he went outside to talk to him.

01:15:58
Right, you know what I mean.

01:15:59
So the sheriff's deputy arrives and davis confirmed what he

01:16:02
told the homeowner and he gave the address of his mother's

01:16:05
apartment at wind rush apartments.

01:16:07
Uh, davis was detained while officers rushed to 4322 costa

01:16:12
riz road, apartment 1707 in corpus christi, to check on his

01:16:17
mother, 50 year oldyear-old Kimberly Hill.

01:16:19
Now, the door to the apartment was locked so they had the

01:16:22
manager open the door and when they go inside it was a fucking

01:16:26
bloodbath, okay.

01:16:28
They found Kimberly Hill's bludgeoned body, naked from the

01:16:31
waist down, laying in her bedroom with a bloody hammer on

01:16:34
the floor beside her.

01:16:37
Speaker 5: Saying earlier.

01:16:37
You've talked to some people.

01:16:39
You want to get some stuff off your chest.

01:16:40
He's like have you want to hear it from you or we have an idea?

01:16:44
You're the only one looking for it.

01:16:59
Speaker 1: He's like have you been to the house?

01:17:00
What's the beginning?

01:17:01
Speaker 5: man.

01:17:01
What's the question?

01:17:02
Well, the very beginning I asked my mother for permission

01:17:10
to die, but rather than commit suicide.

01:17:12
A Mortal Kombat fan Sort of being around a bush sort of

01:17:15
thing, because, well, that doesn't really matter why I

01:17:19
wanted to kill myself, it does.

01:17:21
I'm bored with life, I don't like life, I don't like people,

01:17:25
I don't like living it.

01:17:26
Basically, there's really nothing anything depressing

01:17:28
about it, it's just where it is, and so I wrote the note I did.

01:17:36
Where did you write the note?

01:17:37
Around 6, 6, 6, 7-ish Today or yesterday, yesterday All?

01:17:44
Speaker 1: right.

01:17:44
So now the notes that Davis is talking about.

01:17:47
He left behind several notes, I believe three or more, and the

01:17:51
one they're talking about in particular is one that stated

01:17:54
chase me, sorry for the mess, kd .

01:17:58
Speaker 2: Sorry for the mess is such a condescending end of

01:17:59
like.

01:17:59
Sorry for the mess, KD.

01:18:00
Sorry for the mess is such a condescending yeah, Sorry for

01:18:02
the mess You're emphasizing.

01:18:05
He's proud of how he bludgeoned Her body.

01:18:09
He's proud of it.

01:18:10
That right there shows intent to a full degree.

01:18:12
Speaker 1: Right, right.

01:18:13
So now Kevin Davis.

01:18:15
He was born in December 27th 1995, but there's not much known

01:18:19
about his childhood.

01:18:20
He obviously harbored like psychopathic and antisocial

01:18:24
tendencies, you know, because, as we'll learn, he has zero

01:18:27
empathy for what he did and he'll claim that he felt bad,

01:18:31
but his actions, they tell another story.

01:18:32
So Davis will claim that the years leading up to this moment

01:18:36
he had become bored with life and that he didn't like anyone

01:18:39
or anything about his life.

01:18:41
So, for whatever reason, he decided to tell his mother that

01:18:45
he was going to kill himself, as he stated in the clip.

01:18:47
Her response was well, I'll be sad, but there's nothing I can

01:18:52
do to stop you.

01:18:53
You're an adult, you know.

01:18:54
So I mean that's, that's that's kind of rough coming from a

01:18:57
parent.

01:18:58
But I mean we talked a little bit about this before.

01:19:01
It's like how many times did he come up and say he was going to

01:19:04
do this?

01:19:04
you know what I mean yeah you know, like when, when, like if

01:19:07
you're kids and they come up and they tell you like the same

01:19:10
thing 87 times, you're just like yeah, yeah.

01:19:12
By 87 you're just like whatever , yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, okay,

01:19:15
yeah.

01:19:15
You know what I mean?

01:19:16
Don't know.

01:19:16
I mean, that's the only way I could, like like uh, put her

01:19:20
response into some sort of rational like.

01:19:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this individual seems Kevin,

01:19:25
definitely seems like he's done this once or twice too, right,

01:19:28
so I?

01:19:28
Speaker 1: can Like woe is me?

01:19:30
Yeah, I'm fucking.

01:19:31
Speaker 2: I don't like people, my.

01:19:32
Speaker 1: You know.

01:19:34
But I mean just looking at, you know, just hearing a little bit

01:19:36
about him and stuff like that.

01:19:37
I mean he was obviously he had no friends.

01:19:40
You know himself for sure.

01:19:41
Yeah, he was basically went to school and stuck himself in the

01:19:45
fucking room and never really associated with anybody, but all

01:19:49
right.

01:19:49
So her, her comment, her response to you know his, his

01:19:53
wish to kill himself.

01:19:54
This infuriated him that his own mother could be so

01:19:58
nonchalant about her son killing herself.

01:20:01
What a bitch right.

01:20:03
So he changed his plan of committing suicide and now he's

01:20:07
going to murder his mother and his sister.

01:20:11
Speaker 5: I don't know.

01:20:12
Actually I mulled it over and then, on a whim actually, I

01:20:17
turned it over, wrote a plan to kill both my mother and my

01:20:20
sister.

01:20:21
Quite frankly, because that's always been a thing of mine, I'm

01:20:24
a bit of a pervert.

01:20:25
It is actually so.

01:20:31
That didn't happen.

01:20:32
The best laid plans never work out, apparently, or at least the

01:20:35
one scribbled on a piece of paper because she had decided

01:20:39
she was sick of this stuff and she was going to go send me to

01:20:41
my sister again.

01:20:43
I tried to strangle her with a cord, a ripped cord from a video

01:20:47
game console controller.

01:20:48
That didn't work.

01:20:50
Huh, what was this that you thought was going to happen?

01:20:52
She was sitting on the couch watching TV.

01:20:55
Okay, that didn't work out too well.

01:20:57
She started screaming and so I went to her room, open a drawer

01:21:03
at the very bottom to the right.

01:21:04
I pulled out a hammer.

01:21:06
I went back in the living room and well, you kind of get the

01:21:09
gist from there, and she was out pretty quickly.

01:21:14
Kind of tried to play dead at first.

01:21:16
Then I finished it.

01:21:18
Do you hit her with a hammer when she was seeing this in the

01:21:21
sofa in the living room?

01:21:22
No, first I tried to strangle her.

01:21:25
That didn't work.

01:21:26
She grabbed the cord.

01:21:27
So I raced back into her room, grabbed the hammer, came back

01:21:31
out and then did it.

01:21:32
How many times here would I have to live in the house?

01:21:37
At least 20.

01:21:38
But then she was still alive.

01:21:40
I dragged her into the room and probably clearly saw, and then

01:21:45
I kind of formed my hands into her brain to kind of just cut it

01:21:50
.

01:21:50
She was still snoring.

01:21:53
Speaker 1: Bro, holy crap, there's a lot to unpack in this

01:21:57
little fucking clip.

01:21:58
Speaker 5: Holy crap.

01:22:02
Speaker 2: How nonchalant he is.

01:22:03
I stuck my hand into her brain and mangled it up a little bit

01:22:04
so she would.

01:22:05
She was still snoring.

01:22:06
Yeah, that's not a snore, that's a, like a body response

01:22:09
of just right dying.

01:22:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna touch on that in a

01:22:13
minute.

01:22:13
But I mean this, this guy, uh, all right, so in his own words,

01:22:15
he said it's always been a thing of mine.

01:22:16
I'm a bit of a pervert.

01:22:17
Said it's always been a thing of mine, I'm a bit of a pervert.

01:22:20
So meaning he's always had this fantasy about killing his

01:22:22
mother and sister, which goes back to his psychopathy, that he

01:22:26
didn't see his mother or sister as family members in the

01:22:28
context of, you know, the majority of people do.

01:22:30
He saw them as objects, like pieces of meat that he's saw fit

01:22:35
to be used.

01:22:35
However, another point during the clip he states that his

01:22:38
mother was sick of this stuff and was going to send him to

01:22:42
live with his sister again.

01:22:43
Damn.

01:22:43
So an obvious slap in the face, you know, in his mind, like who

01:22:47
does this woman think she is?

01:22:49
You know, I'm not a fucking child to be sent around

01:22:52
everywhere.

01:22:52
Yeah, you know so.

01:22:54
Yeah.

01:22:54
So he snaps and he tries a strangler with a cord from a

01:22:56
video game controller.

01:22:57
She starts screaming.

01:22:58
That didn't work, so Davis ran back to her bedroom, opened a

01:23:05
drawer and pulled out a hammer, went back into the living room

01:23:06
and began bashing her in the skull at least 20 times with the

01:23:08
hammer.

01:23:08
She was still alive as he dragged her into the bedroom and

01:23:12
there, you know, as he said, he stuck his hand inside her

01:23:15
crushed skull and tried to mash her brain because she was still

01:23:19
snoring.

01:23:19
Now, this is an interesting note.

01:23:21
Like this, snoring is violent.

01:23:24
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like a Mortal Kombat.

01:23:25
Fatality, oh my God.

01:23:27
Speaker 1: So it's a natural response to death?

01:23:30
Okay, the snoring.

01:23:32
Or, in this case, it's catastrophic brain trauma.

01:23:34
Okay, so it's been called the death snore or the death rattle,

01:23:38
and it's basically terminal respiratory secretions, like

01:23:42
everything in your body has pretty much stopped working,

01:23:45
except for your last handful or breaths.

01:23:49
Bodily functions yeah, so you're not swallowing saliva,

01:23:52
you're not swallowing mucus, you're not clearing your throat,

01:23:55
you're just you know.

01:23:56
Yeah, so as the person is dying , the throat relaxes and the

01:24:00
mucus and saliva build up in the throat.

01:24:02
So as they take their last breaths, it sounds as if they're

01:24:06
snoring, like this you would.

01:24:09
Speaker 2: You would.

01:24:10
Speaker 5: You're really painting the picture here and

01:24:12
that's when you reached in and grabbed her brain, yeah, I

01:24:32
kicked out of the bed, then I just that was kind of silly.

01:24:36
But then yeah, I just decided to reach in and kind of just do

01:24:40
it.

01:24:41
Speaker 1: So he would later tell detectives that her brain

01:24:44
felt like putty.

01:24:44
And even though he originally told detectives that he didn't

01:24:47
use a knife on his mother, Davis did grab a knife and stuck it

01:24:51
inside his mother's skull as his first attempt to scramble her

01:24:55
brain.

01:24:56
Speaker 2: Damn Dave, you really had to add the audio of

01:24:59
somebody taking their last breath.

01:25:00
Dude, you're really painting the picture here at Criminal Air

01:25:03
.

01:25:03
I like it, we're thorough.

01:25:04
Speaker 1: I like it.

01:25:07
Speaker 2: Dude, that's probably such a perfect description of

01:25:09
just blind rage.

01:25:10
Just stick your hand in an open skull and just mangle it up.

01:25:15
You can almost paint that picture.

01:25:18
You can see him doing it out of just pure anger, right, holy

01:25:22
shit.

01:25:22
Speaker 1: Well, I think at this point, I mean, yeah, it's a

01:25:25
cross between anger and curiosity.

01:25:28
I think, yeah, you know, it's like, oh, there's her brain

01:25:32
hanging out of her fucking head, Let me grab it and push it

01:25:35
around.

01:25:35
It's like, whatever, all right, right.

01:25:37
Speaker 5: So this is where they talk about the knife and there

01:25:40
was some blood in the knife, but you said you never used it,

01:25:42
like it's just blood just from where you grabbed it around.

01:25:44
Oh, that knife.

01:25:46
Actually I used that to stir her brains up and that didn't

01:25:49
really work out.

01:25:50
Speaker 1: So I just kind of dealt on it.

01:25:52
Speaker 5: Did you do that in the living room or the bedroom?

01:25:54
Because we found that in the it wasn't in the bedroom.

01:25:56
I may have started out.

01:25:59
Yeah, actually I used a knife in the living room and then I

01:26:02
didn't.

01:26:02
I take it with me, so her brain were already kind of coming out

01:26:06
when in the living room.

01:26:07
When you dragged her, yes, but she was still snoring like a

01:26:10
baby and so I just kind of dragged her this dude.

01:26:16
Speaker 1: Wow, all right, so now what happens happens next

01:26:20
takes this already disturbing murder to a whole other level.

01:26:23
But wait, there's more, there's more.

01:26:27
When detectives asked Davis what he did after this, he

01:26:31
matter-of-factly replied Then I had sex with her.

01:26:34
Speaker 5: of course you did Did you no, so not I did actually.

01:26:38
Have you ever done that before?

01:26:39
Have you had sex with her corpse?

01:26:39
You did, did you?

01:26:39
No, so not I did actually.

01:26:40
Have you ever done that before that sex attack?

01:26:40
No, I haven't actually, that was just the first time.

01:26:43
Oh yeah, I lost my virginity to a corpse.

01:26:46
Okay, did you change in the bathroom?

01:26:49
I did.

01:26:50
I took a bath before then with my penis really.

01:27:07
Speaker 2: Well, that's a little personal, but yeah, I needed to

01:27:09
clean it off and so um, and then I then I changed.

01:27:11
Yeah, bro, so nonchalant.

01:27:11
Oh yeah, my penis was a little dirty.

01:27:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had that corp stick, yeah had my.

01:27:13
Speaker 2: Oh, you can't even say it.

01:27:14
If everybody wants, I'm sitting here.

01:27:15
He went to.

01:27:15
I know what he was gonna say and he and he just gave up.

01:27:18
He looked defeated when he was going to say it.

01:27:21
Speaker 1: Holy crap, this is horrible.

01:27:23
Oh, this is awful.

01:27:24
So Davis had told detectives that he's had violent thoughts

01:27:28
since his preteens, and the idea of killing his mother and

01:27:30
sister had been in his head for quite a while.

01:27:32
Speaker 5: How about your sister ?

01:27:34
What's your sister's name?

01:27:35
Desire sister, what's your sister's name?

01:27:37
Uh, desiree hill.

01:27:37
Is she okay?

01:27:38
She is okay, yeah, where she lives an apartment actually very

01:27:50
near here, um, that big kind of hispanic thing, I mean like

01:27:51
spanish looking building.

01:27:52
It's an old apartment complex with a code.

01:27:53
Was it a fantasy of yours to kill her as well, and what you

01:27:55
write down on your your note?

01:27:57
Oh, I did, actually, but I decided against it because, well

01:28:03
, I had my fill of killing and I didn't think a little much, a

01:28:11
little too excessive, yeah.

01:28:14
Speaker 1: I had my fill.

01:28:16
Wow, this, ladies and gentlemen , is what we call post-nut

01:28:20
clarity.

01:28:21
Guys, you know what I'm talking about.

01:28:26
Get off of me.

01:28:27
Yeah, so you know, your hormones are raging.

01:28:30
It makes you think and do things that you wouldn't

01:28:32
normally do, and then, once you nut, you're like ah shit.

01:28:36
Speaker 2: What the fuck happened?

01:28:37
Fuck, I wish I didn't do that you paused the, you paused the

01:28:41
porn this front like oh what do you look back up?

01:28:43
Speaker 3: you're like god damn what the fuck is wrong with me?

01:28:46
Speaker 1: yeah, oh my god.

01:28:49
Yeah, that's definitely post-nut clarity.

01:28:51
So if, if he would have not ran away, if he just would have

01:28:55
like hung around or whatever, uh , eventually that those hormones

01:28:58
would have came back and he probably would have finished the

01:29:00
deal.

01:29:00
So now, instead of killing his sister, desiree, he did leave

01:29:04
her a note to mess with her head .

01:29:13
Speaker 5: That one was addressed to who Desiree my

01:29:16
sister, because I knew she was.

01:29:17
Ah, she's a good girl but rather sensitive.

01:29:20
I knew she would lose her head if she kind of saw that.

01:29:23
Do you remember what the note said Keep your head, hurry.

01:29:28
She might still be alive, Although I highly doubt it.

01:29:31
In parentheses, jumping along those lines yeah, sincerely, but

01:29:35
when you wrote the note you knew your mom was already dead.

01:29:38
Oh, yeah, I knew it.

01:29:39
You know he's messing with with desert right in there.

01:29:42
That she might still be alive.

01:29:43
Yeah, my sick sense of humor.

01:29:46
I was pretty well off my rocker by then you think all right.

01:29:50
Speaker 1: so he's leaving one to taunt the police, he left

01:29:53
another to taunt his sister.

01:29:54
Like hurry, she might still be alive, probably not, ha ha,

01:29:59
knowing damn well that she's.

01:30:00
Oh yeah, that her brains are scrambled outside of her fucking

01:30:02
skull.

01:30:02
Yeah, a short time later, kevin wrote the other note, this,

01:30:06
daring the police to chase him.

01:30:07
He describes himself as being in a playful mood at this point,

01:30:10
and this is when he decided to make a run and ultimately ended

01:30:14
up at Timothy Johnson's house.

01:30:16
Speaker 5: Uh-huh.

01:30:17
And then the second note in your mom's bedroom.

01:30:20
What did that one say?

01:30:21
Do you remember?

01:30:22
Shakes me.

01:30:23
Was that addressed to the police, or I was just in a very

01:30:31
playful mood at the time.

01:30:32
Speaker 1: This guy's out here new-boot goofing around, he just

01:30:37
got laid.

01:30:38
Speaker 5: You know he's feeling good, he's in a good mood.

01:30:39
Jesus, A lack of emotion.

01:30:41
Yeah, According to one of the notes that you wrote.

01:30:43
Oh, yeah, Well, yeah, the Greyhound, but I was going to

01:30:48
try to get out of the state or anything really, but I guess

01:30:51
something else happened.

01:30:52
You ended up at somebody's house.

01:30:53
I told you my plan was foiled because she talked to me.

01:30:57
She said my sister's going to come pick me up now, like in a

01:31:00
few minutes.

01:31:00
Go over to her.

01:31:02
And that's when I said it's time to act, now or never.

01:31:04
I see, I just went over to their house to use their phone

01:31:11
and then they wanted I was using their phone, so I thought I

01:31:13
might as well tell them when they asked me questions I mean,

01:31:14
they had questions on using their phone when was this at?

01:31:20
Where did you end up at?

01:31:20
Ultimately, I ended up in the backwoods of a ditch here in

01:31:24
town or out of town, Ross Town, In Ross Town.

01:31:26
How did you get over there?

01:31:28
In Corpus Christi, I biked halfway and then I got to the

01:31:33
train tracks and then I ditched the bike in the thick woods and

01:31:37
then from the train tracks I just walked To Rostov.

01:31:40
Yeah, Okay, and then you came up to the.

01:31:42
Was it like the first house that you saw, or how did you?

01:31:46
How did you go to this house for the first to use the phone?

01:31:48
Initially, my plan was just to run, run, run as far as I can,

01:31:53
but then I ended up crying my eyes out in like the thick woods

01:31:56
.

01:31:56
Oh shit, like oh crying my eyes out and like oh, what did I do?

01:31:59
And I realized oh, you don't know what you lost until you've

01:32:01
already lost it and so I.

01:32:03
Speaker 2: It sounds so fucking fake.

01:32:04
Yeah, it is my life, isn't?

01:32:06
Speaker 5: going to go anywhere, not anymore, so I just kind of

01:32:08
gave it up midway yeah, what he says later, just basically just

01:32:13
throwing out hallmark greeting cards, statements that like the

01:32:17
most generic.

01:32:19
Speaker 1: Like, what am I supposed to say in this

01:32:20
situation?

01:32:21
Oh, this is what I'll say.

01:32:22
Speaker 2: You don't know what you have until it's gone.

01:32:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, yeah.

01:32:25
So, like we thought, you know, Davis claimed in a statement

01:32:27
that he cried his eyes out Like, oh, what did I do?

01:32:30
Yeah, bull, fucking shit.

01:32:32
Because he totally contradicts himself in this next clip.

01:32:39
Speaker 5: You feel sorry.

01:32:39
You did this to your mom In a way, yes, but I wouldn't take

01:32:43
back what I did.

01:32:43
It's strange, really.

01:32:46
I did love her in a way.

01:32:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, in a way, okay, In a way, in a way enough to

01:32:54
have sex with her.

01:32:55
Now, as investigators, you know you need to try to establish a

01:32:59
motive, and right now the motive is Kimberly Hill didn't seem to

01:33:02
care that Davis was going to kill himself and threatened to

01:33:05
send him to live with his sister .

01:33:06
But you want to try and paint a bigger picture Like was she

01:33:10
physically abusive?

01:33:11
Did she emotionally emasculate him as a child?

01:33:14
Like, what did she do to drive her son to this drastic and

01:33:19
horrific decision?

01:33:20
In short, apparently nothing.

01:33:22
Speaker 5: No, oh no, no.

01:33:25
She's been the best mother.

01:33:26
Nothing that she did, oh, absolutely nothing.

01:33:30
If I was to ask you what did she do to deserve this?

01:33:33
What would you answer?

01:33:34
Absolutely nothing.

01:33:35
I'm just.

01:33:36
I'm a terrible.

01:33:37
I'm a real disgusting person.

01:33:38
What did you come up?

01:33:38
Absolutely nothing.

01:33:38
I'm just a terrible.

01:33:39
I'm a cruel, disgusting person.

01:33:39
Speaker 3: How did you come?

01:33:40
Speaker 5: up with the idea to kill her and have sex with her?

01:33:42
How did I come up with it?

01:33:44
Yeah, was it?

01:33:44
It's been a development idea in my career.

01:33:47
But you haven't gotten ideas from games or videos.

01:33:51
Are you not into some of those dark games?

01:33:55
Some things inspired me, but they did not necessarily plant

01:33:58
the seed.

01:33:58
They didn't plant the seed, but they did egg me on, rather, I

01:34:04
guess.

01:34:04
Did you have the books you've been reading?

01:34:05
Not necessarily, Actually.

01:34:09
I recently got into watching some foreign movies, creepy

01:34:13
stuff, not necessarily mainstream horror, the kind of

01:34:16
stuff that you keep away from, Not necessarily mainstream war,

01:34:19
the kind of stuff that you keep away from.

01:34:21
Despite how I ended her life, I'm kind of more fascinated by

01:34:28
the more artistic ways of murder , the meticulous manner, the way

01:34:30
they cut them open and just slice them to pieces.

01:34:34
I mean such care, such love.

01:34:36
Speaker 2: What the fuck I mean.

01:34:38
Such care, such love, what the fuck See like?

01:34:39
Listening to his interview you can tell.

01:34:41
I will all argue that even the whole seed that he planted in

01:34:45
the beginning about oh, she didn't care that I wanted to

01:34:48
kill my dad, that's all made up too, right?

01:34:49
He just added that because I mean, he's trying to like.

01:34:52
You can see the sociopath in him where he's trying to make it

01:34:55
.

01:34:55
But he's changing his story, right?

01:34:58
The?

01:34:58
Speaker 1: sociopath in him where he's trying to like, make

01:34:59
it he, but he's changing his story.

01:35:00
So, right, yeah, he, he basically.

01:35:01
He's basically telling the detectives a story you know

01:35:03
which, which is matter of fact, but when it comes to him, uh,

01:35:06
he's telling them what they, what he thinks they want to hear

01:35:09
yeah, you can tell it's all.

01:35:10
Speaker 2: Just he's going through a like a checklist,

01:35:12
right?

01:35:13
Speaker 1: but he actually let it slip out a couple of times.

01:35:16
Uh, this has been on his mind for a long fucking time.

01:35:19
Speaker 2: He said slice them up with love, With love.

01:35:22
That is terrifying.

01:35:24
Speaker 1: Now, okay, so this leads us to another discussion.

01:35:27
We're going to break off just a second Now.

01:35:29
Do you believe that video games and movies corrupt a young mind

01:35:33
into committing murder?

01:35:34
I mean, you've talked about growing up with the internet and

01:35:37
watching cartel videos and snuff films when you were

01:35:39
younger, but you've never murdered any.

01:35:42
Well, not that I know of you never killed anybody, not that

01:35:44
you know of.

01:35:44
You do have Mohegan Park.

01:35:47
I know what you're saying, though.

01:35:49
Speaker 2: Unfiltered access to the internet at 10 years old is

01:35:51
a wild thing.

01:35:51
Yeah, and like I think he actually said it, it definitely

01:35:56
sparks interest, but it doesn't.

01:35:57
It's not.

01:35:57
It's not planting seeds, that's not what drives you, but you're

01:36:00
definitely interested, so it's not like the 80s Remember.

01:36:02
Speaker 1: Well, no, you don't remember.

01:36:03
Speaker 5: Faces of death.

01:36:04
Speaker 1: Well, no, there was like this huge thing in the 80s

01:36:07
where, like Metallica- yeah, that's all just like he's doing,

01:36:11
right Like with the whole suicide thing, it's people will

01:36:15
claim like oh, they don't accept the accountability for

01:36:17
themselves.

01:36:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, Video games made me do it, or music made me

01:36:29
do it.

01:36:29
That's not the real.

01:36:30
That's not really the case.

01:36:31
They're just trying to take the blame off themselves, right?

01:36:39
Speaker 1: L themselves, right, lack of lack of a

01:36:40
self-accountability.

01:36:40
Yeah, yeah, okay.

01:36:40
Now, when I first looked at this case, I viewed it as a

01:36:42
reverse.

01:36:42
Ed kemper, like kemper went on a killing spree before he boy

01:36:45
killed yeah, this is my boy uh, before he killed his mother.

01:36:49
And davis actually started with his mother.

01:36:51
You know what I mean.

01:36:52
And the more I dove into this, the more it became apparent that

01:36:55
davis, like this kid, would not have stopped at his mother.

01:36:59
You know what I mean.

01:37:00
Like he lived in a fucking fantasy world where killing,

01:37:04
dismembering, necrophilia they all played vital roles in these

01:37:08
fantasies.

01:37:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you look at the countless sons who

01:37:12
killed their mom, they don't desecrate bodies, it's more of

01:37:15
an anger thing and it's quick and painless.

01:37:17
I'm not talking about serial killers, I'm just saying, when

01:37:19
you hear about those stories that have gone viral, yeah,

01:37:21
what's that kid's name?

01:37:22
They shoot him.

01:37:24
Speaker 1: They usually just shoot him, and it's over the one

01:37:25
that talks like this he was like 15 and he killed his mother

01:37:31
.

01:37:31
I know who you're talking about .

01:37:33
I don, I can't fucking think of his name.

01:37:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely levels to this shit,

01:37:36
right yeah?

01:37:37
Speaker 1: And like he just went off and fucking beat her and

01:37:39
left.

01:37:39
Speaker 2: The fact that he mutilated her body and had sex

01:37:41
with it.

01:37:41
Dude, this guy, this kid, is twisted from next level.

01:37:44
Yeah, next level.

01:37:44
So that brings me back to what you're saying about Timothy

01:37:46
Johnson not being home, right?

01:37:57
Speaker 1: Was he really Because he's, yeah, like he just killed

01:37:59
his mother.

01:37:59
He had sex with her.

01:38:00
In this interview he admitted to cumming inside of his mother

01:38:04
and hence why he had to go wash his penis, you know, because it

01:38:07
was all dirty Not to be too graphic Not to be too graphic.

01:38:10
Speaker 2: Not after what they walked into, but you know.

01:38:12
Speaker 1: So a normal, A normal healthy man, if they nut at,

01:38:17
say, 8 o'clock at night, they're ready to go by the next morning

01:38:20
.

01:38:20
Yeah, at least.

01:38:21
Yeah, you know what I mean.

01:38:22
So, davis, you know he killed his mother, had sex with her,

01:38:27
nutted, whatever, runs away.

01:38:29
I'm in a playful mood.

01:38:30
Hee, hee, hee, I'm going to fucking run away.

01:38:31
New boot goofing Right.

01:38:32
So now the morning comes.

01:38:34
Post-nut clarity has fucking worn off.

01:38:37
He's a fucking psychopath.

01:38:38
Speaker 2: He just committed the thing that has been his fantasy

01:38:40
for the longest time.

01:38:41
Right, so you know he was his.

01:38:42
He's got an itch for it.

01:38:43
Speaker 1: He got an itch for it , right.

01:38:44
So now, like you said, he shows up at Timothy Johnson's house.

01:38:47
And yeah, if he wasn't home, what the fuck would he have done

01:38:51
?

01:38:51
You know what I mean.

01:38:51
He might have 100%, all right, so yeah, so, like we were

01:38:55
talking about, you know he has this fucking wild fantasy world

01:38:58
that he lives in Killing, dismembering, necrophilia you

01:39:01
know they all played vital roles in this shit and he talks about

01:39:03
it a little bit here.

01:39:04
Speaker 5: You still feel like, well, you're done with your mom.

01:39:07
You still feel like you want to keep on killing, To keep on,

01:39:11
you know, with other fantasies.

01:39:13
I came here to pay for my crimes, so I guess I should

01:39:18
continue with the truth.

01:39:19
Truthfully, I would kill again Bingo.

01:39:26
Oh no, Rabbit, men aren't my thing actually.

01:39:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, that post-num clarity when he got to the door

01:39:33
and he saw Johnson, yeah.

01:39:35
Speaker 1: He was like aw, yeah, men aren't my thing, damn.

01:39:38
Speaker 5: You just ruined my bone.

01:39:39
I've never had a girl in my life.

01:39:40
I tell you what.

01:39:41
Give me your fancy a criminal.

01:39:42
Oh, your fancy killing would be your age, killing.

01:39:47
Fuck, there's a little peculiar among him.

01:39:50
Okay, um, maybe dressing up in a nice suit, sneaking into her

01:39:56
house, disabling her boyfriend.

01:39:58
You know, I'd bring a pretty dress with me to dress her up in

01:40:03
Dude this is not something you just pull off top of your head.

01:40:06
Speaker 1: No, this is something you've been thinking about for

01:40:09
years.

01:40:10
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of like in a defense lawyer's

01:40:12
aspect in this interview and I'm like, dude, you're saying the

01:40:14
wrong shit, shut the fuck up Like what are you doing?

01:40:16
You're literally you're giving the motive that you're fucking

01:40:19
lock him up for the rest of your life.

01:40:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.

01:40:22
Speaker 2: Holy shit.

01:40:24
Speaker 5: I was always into strangling, but after that last

01:40:28
blunder I guess maybe something big and sharp would be more

01:40:34
along my thing.

01:40:37
Speaker 1: So it's kind of key to point out strangling is very

01:40:41
personal, it's up close, you're feeling that last breath, Right?

01:40:45
So I think for him to have this fantasy for all these years

01:40:49
about strangling a woman and it not being successful kind of

01:40:52
threw him off.

01:40:53
Speaker 2: Maybe angered him a little bit, you know which is

01:40:56
why he you didn't give him my thing.

01:40:58
Speaker 1: Right, which probably sent him in a fucking rage and

01:41:01
resulted in his mother getting her fucking head bashed in, you

01:41:03
know yeah.

01:41:03
Speaker 5: I could I don't know probably decapitate her.

01:41:06
I prefer my woman dead, jesus Christ, I'd dress her up, I'd

01:41:12
stitch her up, kind of try to work the head back on perhaps.

01:41:16
Speaker 1: Okay, he would chop her head off.

01:41:18
Well, he would dress her up in a dress.

01:41:19
Chop her head off.

01:41:20
Speaker 2: Stitch her head back on, put her in a nice dress,

01:41:22
yeah.

01:41:28
Speaker 5: And have a beautiful romantic dinner together.

01:41:29
What?

01:41:31
Speaker 2: Wow, bro, fuck Dave, what are you bringing?

01:41:35
Speaker 5: Why are you bringing me these stories, dude?

01:41:36
Burn everything and run for the hills.

01:41:39
Speaker 1: Burn everything and run for the hills.

01:41:40
Burn everything and run for the hills.

01:41:42
Speaker 2: I mean, hey, holy shit, the guy just literally

01:41:44
just reenacted his perfect murder to the fucking detective.

01:41:47
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this has been something on his brain for

01:41:51
years, Years and years and years .

01:41:52
All right, so, before the interview ended, this is where

01:41:55
it's going to get good.

01:41:56
So, before the interview ended, this is where it's going to get

01:41:58
good.

01:41:58
Before the interview ended, the detectives they wanted to

01:42:02
clarify what Davis meant by saying he lost his virginity to

01:42:06
a corpse.

01:42:07
Like you know, were there others, but you know I'm going

01:42:13
to let this clip play out.

01:42:14
And what we learn his mother was, in fact, not the first dead

01:42:18
body that Davis has had sex with.

01:42:21
This is fucking wild.

01:42:23
Speaker 5: You mentioned that you lost your virginity to a

01:42:25
corpse.

01:42:25
Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that?

01:42:27
What happened?

01:42:28
Well, just last night, my mother yeah, okay, not somebody

01:42:32
else.

01:42:32
You're talking about your mom, yes, okay, so before that you

01:42:35
had never had sex.

01:42:39
Speaker 1: Here it is.

01:42:41
Speaker 5: Well, I guess, since I'm being quiet about it, I

01:42:45
might as well tell you now yeah, and it's on the note too, the

01:42:49
PS part we used to have a gray cat named Claire.

01:42:52
Oh yeah, bcl is a thing of mine too, now you know.

01:42:55
And so I strangled it, I drowned it and then I cut it

01:43:00
open.

01:43:01
You know the rest, I get the rest.

01:43:04
You had sex with a cat, a dead cat, yeah, ripped it open, stuck

01:43:08
it in there.

01:43:10
Speaker 1: Ripped it open and stuck it in there.

01:43:13
Speaker 5: So your thing of having sex with a live person,

01:43:16
that doesn't turn you on.

01:43:17
It's a dead thing.

01:43:19
Dead person, dead animals, that's what turns you on.

01:43:22
I don't necessarily mind.

01:43:24
I don't have standards or morals.

01:43:27
Body to body and in the end it's a piece of meat.

01:43:35
Speaker 2: I guess it's harsh to say but no, I don't necessarily

01:43:36
mind, dude, I'm speechless.

01:43:43
Speaker 1: What the fuck Like?

01:43:45
Speaker 2: okay, this just brings up a yeah this kid is a

01:43:47
complete lunatic and thank God he I mean it's sad about his

01:43:51
mother, but at least he wasn't out there, for like you know

01:43:54
what I mean Like he wasn't a predator for years and rack up

01:43:57
those bodies, and this is clearly was going to turn into a

01:44:01
10 plus, oh, absolutely 100 percent.

01:44:04
Speaker 1: So it kind of like brings it back to, like, you

01:44:06
know, when he told his mother that he was going to kill

01:44:08
himself, and she's just like, sorry, yeah, whatever.

01:44:13
Speaker 2: Maybe she should have been like yeah, do it Right,

01:44:15
Holy.

01:44:16
Speaker 1: Right, because I'm sure, like and we talked about

01:44:20
what led up to this like, what experiences did the mother have

01:44:22
with, with this dude where she's come to the point and be like,

01:44:26
hey, you do it, you do it, I don't it is what it is,

01:44:29
obviously, uh, the mother must have known that fucking, mr

01:44:33
fucking mittens fucking disappeared, and you know what I

01:44:37
mean.

01:44:37
Oh man, what happened to mr mittens?

01:44:39
And I don't know.

01:44:40
So there's, there's been signs there's definitely been signs.

01:44:44
Yeah, now this whole thing makes sense in the beginning of the

01:44:46
story too, once it gets this far down yeah, so, uh, so initially

01:44:50
, uh, kevin davis, he pled not guilty to the charges even

01:44:54
though he had fully confessed to the murder.

01:44:56
Uh, this is possibly to use as a insanity defense, even though

01:45:00
he told detectives that he was 100% sane.

01:45:05
Speaker 5: Did you ever tell anybody else what your plans

01:45:06
were, that you know what you wanted to do with your mom or

01:45:09
your sister?

01:45:10
No, but over the years there were hints.

01:45:14
As a younger boy I was a lot dumber, a lot more angsty.

01:45:19
I said things, but I guess they basically brushed it off.

01:45:23
The hints were everywhere, but they're my family Family looks

01:45:28
back.

01:45:28
They try to not look at it.

01:45:31
I guess I'm not mentally disturbed.

01:45:36
I'm sane.

01:45:36
I know exactly what I did.

01:45:38
I know that it's wrong.

01:45:40
Speaker 2: Back again.

01:45:41
The defense lawyer is like shut , the fuck up.

01:45:44
Speaker 5: It was just a fantasy you had.

01:45:45
You had to carry it out, carry it out, yeah, now I feel vaguely

01:45:50
kind of like I'm done.

01:45:54
Speaker 2: You know what's so interesting.

01:45:54
Yeah, I'm like also if you look at it for like we, you know

01:46:00
what's so interesting.

01:46:01
Yeah, I'm like also if you look at it for like we were just

01:46:02
saying.

01:46:02
Like I'm like yo, shut up.

01:46:03
But at the same time, this is right here with him and that

01:46:06
detective, this is years and years of needed therapy, right

01:46:08
Expressed.

01:46:08
He already committed the crime.

01:46:09
He knows he's done Right For life.

01:46:11
So he's like he's probably held on to this for so long, so it

01:46:15
probably feels amazing to him right to just talk about a

01:46:18
little bit that's going on in his mind.

01:46:19
So, like the average person's, like yo, what the fuck?

01:46:22
What are you doing?

01:46:23
But at the same time, you can see where he needed to.

01:46:26
He needs to get this off.

01:46:27
He needs.

01:46:28
He's talked to nobody about these things ever I know.

01:46:31
Speaker 1: And now these like and this is like a whole thing

01:46:33
with, like you know, psychopaths and and all that, you know,

01:46:35
serial killers, whatever, like once they get caught and they

01:46:38
start like spilling yeah, you know, it's almost like you do it

01:46:41
to get the reaction office.

01:46:43
Oh, you know, I mean so.

01:46:45
So if you're talking about, you know, fucking ripping a cat

01:46:47
open and sticking your dick inside of it, you know, I mean

01:46:50
it's kind of like you're reliving the moment, but also

01:46:54
you're you're feeding off of that crazy energy right, know

01:46:57
what I mean.

01:46:57
Speaker 2: I don't know if that makes sense.

01:46:58
Yeah, I know what you're saying .

01:47:00
You're getting that person's reaction and you're like, yeah,

01:47:02
yeah, you like that right, you like that right.

01:47:06
Speaker 1: I do it.

01:47:06
Sometimes I say fucked up shit just to get people's reactions.

01:47:10
Oh yeah, I know you do.

01:47:10
All right.

01:47:11
So a psychiatrist evaluated Davis and determined that he did

01:47:15
have an antisocial personality disorder.

01:47:17
However, the doctor also added that Kevin knew full well the

01:47:21
difference between right and wrong when he killed his mother,

01:47:23
and so there was no medical reasoning or explanation behind

01:47:27
his actions.

01:47:27
During the trial, the defense called no witnesses and

01:47:31
eventually Davis ended up changing his plea to guilty

01:47:35
Because you were On October 8th 2014,.

01:47:38
The jury had to decide Davis's fate.

01:47:41
The death penalty was not an option in this case, because the

01:47:44
crime was not considered capital murder.

01:47:46
I thought Texas killed everybody.

01:47:48
Speaker 2: I know I was going to say this is strange because I

01:47:50
thought for sure Texas would be like yeah, texas and Florida,

01:47:52
they just like.

01:47:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like death penalty.

01:47:53
Oh, you stole that Snickers.

01:47:54
Yeah, death penalty.

01:47:55
Fucking, you're dead yeah.

01:47:57
Speaker 2: I'm surprised Texas and Florida haven't gone back to

01:47:59
like you steal something, they limp your hand off.

01:48:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, they take a hand In the town square they

01:48:03
just chop your fucking hand off.

01:48:04
So yeah, so it took the jury less than an hour to come back

01:48:08
with.

01:48:09
Speaker 2: Guilty.

01:48:11
Speaker 1: With the possibility of parole, what yes.

01:48:14
With the possibility of parole, go yes.

01:48:21
With the possibility of parole, go figure.

01:48:21
So he will actually be eligible for parole in 2044.

01:48:23
Ladies, I'm coming for you and he'll be primed.

01:48:28
Everybody lock your doors.

01:48:30
Speaker 2: Get your pistol permits ready.

01:48:31
Speaker 1: He'll be primed and ready.

01:48:32
Speaker 2: Oh no, all right, I guarantee you, when his parole

01:48:36
hearing comes up, a judge isn't going to let this guy know.

01:48:39
Speaker 1: No, he'll never, especially when he's like, oh

01:48:41
yeah, I'll definitely fucking kill again.

01:48:42
Yeah, a hundred percent, all right.

01:48:44
So that'll do it for Kevin Davis, the motherfucking virgin.

01:48:47
That's so good.

01:48:49
Speaker 2: Criminal A the motherfucking virgin.

01:48:51
Wait, you know how people say oh, I'm a virgin and a half.

01:48:54
The cat counts as like a half.

01:49:01
You're like, oh, I got the tip in so I can't say I'm a virgin

01:49:03
but like, yeah, the cat counts, so he's a.

01:49:05
Motherfucking virgin and a half .

01:49:08
Speaker 1: Keep going.

01:49:08
End the episode.

01:49:09
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

01:49:09
Speaker 1: He's a cat fucking virgin.

01:49:11
Speaker 2: No, no, because it's not.

01:49:13
Your virginity is with a person , even if it is your dead mother

01:49:17
.

01:49:17
Speaker 1: You can't claim losing your virginity to a goat.

01:49:20
Speaker 2: No, you can't.

01:49:20
Can you claim it to a pillow or an apple pie?

01:49:23
No, you got a point.

01:49:25
Well, those aren't living things.

01:49:26
Speaker 1: Actually, you know what.

01:49:27
Leave this in the Spotify comments.

01:49:29
Let us know.

01:49:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:49:30
Speaker 1: Losing your virginity .

01:49:30
Does it count if it's an animal , a pillow, or let us know what

01:49:34
it is, jesus Christ.

01:49:36
Speaker 2: Our Spotify comments.

01:49:37
We're not getting monetized for shit.

01:49:38
Speaker 1: Dave, fuck it.

01:49:40
We're having a good time, exactly, we're having a good

01:49:41
time, all right.

01:49:42
Speaker 2: So if you found what you heard was interesting, Thank

01:49:46
you, dave's bringing the best stories here on Cobra.

01:49:49
Speaker 1: Go to Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you listen

01:49:51
to podcasts and leave us a review or comment.

01:49:53
Don't forget comment.

01:49:54
How do you lose your virginity?

01:49:56
Speaker 2: uh, place time, place time where with a goat, cow,

01:50:00
cat, cat filleted cat blade.

01:50:02
All right, go ahead, keep going a fish.

01:50:06
Speaker 1: Actually, this brings it up.

01:50:07
Did you ever go to a like a petting zoo?

01:50:08
Yeah, of course okay, and you know how.

01:50:10
Like you can, where is this going?

01:50:13
You can feed the baby goats like a bottle.

01:50:15
Yep, and there.

01:50:16
Speaker 5: And they're just like .

01:50:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, Do you ever think no?

01:50:19
Speaker 2: stop.

01:50:20
No, you ever thought that?

01:50:21
Speaker 1: No, at least cross your mind.

01:50:23
Once, of course it crosses your mind.

01:50:24
Speaker 2: You're like the goat's just lipping.

01:50:28
Speaker 1: He's just lipping Like mowing around All right,

01:50:34
that just went a step too far.

01:50:35
All right, all right.

01:50:37
So All right, that just went a step too far.

01:50:38
All right, all right.

01:50:39
So, don't forget, you can become one of the debauched by

01:50:41
joining our Patreon.

01:50:42
For as little as $2 a month for general support.

01:50:44
Everyone gets ad free episodes and access to our discord.

01:50:48
Those who join the $5 tier above get all of our audible

01:50:51
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01:50:53
all this plus some goodies and producer credits.

01:50:56
Just go to criminalasfuckcom, where you can find the links to

01:51:00
our support socials, merchandise reviews and more.

01:51:04
Speaker 2: Take us out, garrett, signing off from Studio

01:51:06
Chloroform, keep your head on a swivel and stay safe till next

01:51:09
time, see ya.

01:51:13
Speaker 1: Now give me our theme music.

01:51:15
Now give me our theme music.

01:51:21
Executive producers for this episode are Christine Rivera,

01:51:23
beth Davis, dusty J Hicks and Terry Burke Mullen.

01:51:25
Associate producers are Paul Hodge, tara Mazur, chantel

01:51:29
Daggett, jay from Fright Flick FMK, cherise Webb, corey Cribs,

01:51:33
donnie Blake and Jared Rhodes.

01:51:35
Producers are JD Trent Gobble, devin Dean, ashley O'Connor,

01:51:39
alyssa Pirello, alicia Knight, maria Selene, chris Owen,

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notthatchad Emily White, ian Turner, emily Dickendasher,

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debbie from True Crime University, jeanette LeBlanc and

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Rene Prada.

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Intro and outro music by David Mercurio Mercurio.

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Be sure to follow Criminal AF on Instagram, tiktok, facebook

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and YouTube.

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Check out all of our merch and many other items at

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debartsdesignscom.